serpitus
Elder
I think the gerbil has fallen off the wheel!
Posts: 143
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Post by serpitus on May 24, 2004 15:05:26 GMT
There was a thread by Zhoreb "Crafters, money, and merchants"
Makz closed it but I think there might be more to discuss.
The monetary system of pelts bartering is working and dont fix it if it ain't broke. There is a general problem from an RP stand point for druids/rangers or good hearted people that is obvious. The genecide of the forests for material gain.
But there is another source of monetary exchange that could be discussed. Makz write this off if you want but Crafters could trade in gems. Not the gems that are mined but the kind that are found through exploring. There is no garuntee that you will get any in chests or such so exploration becomes significant. The value could be set up by the crafters by setting prices in X-number of, say, emeralds. Now the merchant really doesn't get anything substantial. The gem values are probably less than the value of the crafted items. But the crafter should already be loaded with money any how. It could be a viable option. What do you all think?
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Post by Silentus on May 24, 2004 16:06:27 GMT
Im guessing Makz wont have much care about this unless you are proposing him putting more 'treasure gems' out there - even then he might be fine with it IF people seem serious about using it.
If already talked with Serpitus about this, but Im going to put this opinion to the rest of you as well. Im not against it as such a proposal at all but the reason that pelts and myrk became the items of trade is because they are desired. This is a direct barter based trade for many crafters. I can tell you that certain characters (Vugor among them) would never move to the Gem based ssytem as there is no reason for him to do so - the pelt system saves him alot of work and simplifies his life). That said, there is a problem for druids and the likes as Serp as said.
PROS to PELTS:
1. Direct barter system - no conversion. People trade in what they desire only (pelts, myrk or others)
2. Large inventory size - a person can only be so 'pelt rich'. 'multi millionares would have to fill up all thier persistant chests to be ludicrously rich
3. No World builder interaction.
PROS to GEMS:
1. No ethical issues for druids and other like-minded characters
2. Inherant value to all people as a standard of trade (same as modern money is IRL)
3. Inventory size & weight not as cumbersome or heavy as pelts so easier to trade in functionally
PRIMARY PROBLEM FOR MOVING TO GEM BASED:
What gems have value - Serpitus is proposing only treasure dropped gems (not minables) have value, which I agree on wholeheartedly. It would be unwieldy to say all dropped gems have differnt values, but if they dont then either all low level characters can get VERY rich with easy to get gems OR if only high end gems are tradeable, then low levels are they going to have to barter something else (like pelts) to get them. That basically reners the system moot, so we really need to have a more cumbersome version with differnt gems running different values.... This seems to unwieldy for me. Anyone have any ideas to make this work?
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Post by Phoenix on May 24, 2004 16:25:31 GMT
Whatever replaces pelts/myrk has to have value. Sure we could all start trading in gems, but why? As a crafter what do I get for a gem, why not as for gold instead (which I do on occasion)?
As for pelts, I'm not a tailor, so I don't need them. Not everyone can mine myrk., so what about these crafters? I like the idea of some tradable resource, sure gems sound ok, but again it has to have value.
BTW, where exactly did you get those gems? From the rocks, any druid would rather it stay there where nature put it, same with metal from ore.
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Post by MitzaVolchenko on May 24, 2004 20:43:51 GMT
The pelts as barter will drop off as the folks primarily trading that way master tailoring. The reason pelts have value with Xyon, Xilo, Vugor, etc. is that they are trying to master tailoring which is a horrendous craft to master. Once they are done, they will likely take trade of other things such as gold, scrolls, services, etc.
Bottom line is that the economy in game, like the economy of real life is supply and demand based. If the merchant doesn't want what you have then he isn't going to give up his merchandise for it.
If you don't want to trade pelts, offer services...Xilo wouldn't mind having slaves...errr...servants, I am sure.
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Post by Phoenix on May 24, 2004 21:10:15 GMT
But that is perpetual because it is such a... pain to master. It will always be the craft people need to work on for that reason. It will always be the craft people need the most help with. When this crop finishes a new one will take their place. I could easily start Phoenix into tailoring and I would start the cycle over with another person.
Of course, the market rules, and if you ain't got what they want you probably are not getting the crafted goods, which is why I still take gold from time to time. Especially if it's is a low level buyer, gold still means things to them...
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serpitus
Elder
I think the gerbil has fallen off the wheel!
Posts: 143
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Post by serpitus on May 25, 2004 17:05:45 GMT
Wow didn't expect the heavy hitters to come out so fast.
All good points and I appreciate your comments
Quote: Phoenix
"Has to Have Value"
Yep that is a problem but what happens when the value
Quote: Mitzavolchenko
"Drop off as folks primarily trading that way master tailoring"
So what do crafters trade for?
Quote: Mitzavolchenko
"Xilo wouldn't mind having slaves... err ... servants"
So now the currency is people for masters (ethical problem with good aligned) ?
Quote: Phoenix
"is perputual because it is a pain to master"
Actually there is an end to it especially if your focused, such as trading guilds. Also new players are immediately stuck with servitude for the good items which masters and guilds have. I already hear it being thought "They can craft themselves!"
Though Master Princes are building a fortune with a "Hard Cap". Once you build enough fortune(skill) there is nothing left to gain and there fore no value to what you have. If your craft is worthless then why not give it away. Trading guilds suffer somewhere around here in my little rant.
It's a catch 22 every way you look at it.
The pelt system works great. I think it makes sense and is managable. Especially from a player point of view. Need = cost The pelts/services/myrk have value, Enough said.
So, and this is the hard part, the community would have to accept or create a value for something else. Gems are one possibilty and only that, possible.
I surely dont have the answers and really it doesn't matter the system works, for now!
Not to involve Makz is of prime importance I understand but for an economy of this sort to be fruitfull it would need a little boost. So, maybe if we give value to gems for guilds and long term players (already masters) by...
I will leave it like this The King charges rent on his land of X-amount of gems so often. Guilds can form and build but the Guild hall will cost you. You say you want a house well here is the charge. A temple for your long forgotten god to bring back worship well the tax man cometh. BTW playing the Tax collector would be great RP.
Well what do ya'll think?
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Post by Phoenix on May 25, 2004 17:45:34 GMT
I'm not saying the system can't be changed, just that the current system of pelts for trade is perpetual because someone is always looking for pelt to master tailoring. When one crop finishes of tailors finish others will be starting, because it has such a long cycle to master, pelts will always be in demand. Even if another economy replaces it, people will still deal in pelts as barter. As far as value, I'm not sure you put a complete thought there, or I'm missing something. (in the reply to my quote, not below about taxes). As far as taxes, I'm all for taxation, but something you probably don't know about is jursidiction. This is something we worked out in the Criminal Justice system, as it was relevant there. makzimia.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=criminal&action=display&thread=1076618529The basics boil down to, not all regions are controlled by the King. Ranestadt, Alveria, Clevian, Ferrus and the North Desert are independent, and therefor shouldn't be subject to taxation (debatable). Anyways, that just means evil people who don't pay taxes (live in these places) would be exempt and richer (in gems). Anyways, just a twist on taxes, but I like the concept.  |
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TheNaga
Young One
I am the typo master!
Posts: 37
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Post by TheNaga on May 25, 2004 18:00:08 GMT
IMO the only reason pelts are valuable is so that crafters can use them for tailoring rather than going out killing and skinning animals for themselves where as gems have no real use do they? other than making jewelery which I doubt anyone has a problem with mining the jewels themselves
<edit: fixed some typo's>
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Post by Zhoreb on May 25, 2004 18:30:36 GMT
I don't see much difference in gold and gems, except the first one is available in abundance, and the second one is not. Indeed what I charge is what I need the most at that moment, but if I don't need anything I still go with pelts or ingots or (rare) ingredients. If everyone starts using gems Anoushka will have to adapt of course. Either by accepting it or fighting it, have not decided yet  . Surprise me when I'm back. Zhoreb |
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Post by CrunchX on May 26, 2004 3:44:13 GMT
You don't just change the economy of the world because you wan't something new... think about it, someone already said it and it's true: Supply and demand!
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Post by Gealcath on May 28, 2004 5:01:40 GMT
Also the fact most metal armors requires hides of some type helps to fuel this, so what did i do? I working the craft skills myself, because it becomes too much of a hastle to collect 30 pelts just for a weapon of renown when i can do it myself for cheaper, and anytime i want |
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Post by Silentus on May 28, 2004 8:53:08 GMT
Hehe, yeah, for armor... believe me (and Mitza and Xilo and others) there is no sane reason to take up tailoring as long as there are other tailors around. The 30+ pelts per item is a STEAL compared to the 5000+ that we have to work to get good at making tailored stuff. Really, the only reson t be a tailor when other tailors are around is for the characters development (IC thing) or for the ego trip of saying you mastered tailoring... Im not honestly sure why Im doing it.
Ahh sweet masochism... thy name is ATS tailoring.
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