Weapons

[Oli]

The stats of high end weapons ( reknown, Myrk...) are usually discovered later in the life of a PC, thus a weaponmaster must make his choice trusting in the overall balance and hoping the weapon he will be stuck with is not one he will regret.
I just saw today how much scimitars are at a disadvantage compared to katanas ( razor) and bastard swords ( biting), respectively a difference of 3 and 5 in enhancement and thus in the all-important AB.
I request the addition of more weapons with comparable power for the sake of variety and to maintain the initial balance of weapons ( as they are balanced in their natural unenhanced state).
Oli.

[Silentus]

The reason Scimitars are lower is because they have a better crit threat (18-20 base instead of 19-20). This means when you have a PC setup with a focus on criting you can get a crit threat on a 12 or better with a scimitar instead of a 15 or better - most other weapons have other tradeoffs like this but in differnt ways. There is some meathod to the madness

[Oli]

Thanks for the answer, but I disagree totally !
Please check the numbers, because you need the AB to hit and have those criticals, If I fight against the same char as mine we hit only on a 19 without expertise thus we would have a FAR better chance of a critical with Razor or Biting bastard sword ( those are keen BTW even more reducing the difference in critical range).
The better crit range is compensated by less damage and should not be overcompensated by loss of AB.
I am talking of high end weapons here, apt to be used in tournaments against well armored PCs or in adventure against well armored monsters, the larger critical range is useless without a sufficient chance to hit in those circumstances.
Verify the numbers and you'll see my arguments are still valid.
Oli.

[Silentus]

Yes, a higher AB will help you hit a high end opponent better.
Yes, critting against a high end opponent will be the same with both weapons (but the higher damage ones will do much more damage)
Where the scimitar and rapier come in handy is in wading thru the mid range critters quickly especially when merged with Dev Crit. If you have a crit threat on a 12+ you can pound thru the little ones faster than you can with a katana. That is the point and that is the trade off.

As far as the 12, thats already taken into account:
....................Scimitar... Katana
Weapon base... 18-20... 19-20
Keen weapon... 15-17... 17-18
Improved Crit... 12-14... 15-16
I believe there is also a weapon master feat or something that will allow each of these to go down by 1 more on the first attack each round or something to that effect. Im not an Uber builder - frankly I hardly care at all - just explaining why it is unlikely that Makz will consider modifying them (some of these issues have been discussed before).

Simply put, some weapons ARE BETTER at certain things than others. Thats simple real world historical fact. Not claiming weapons here are based on history but I doubt that Makz will entertain alot more changes to those at this point. Hes already made quite a few. Personally I would love to see a better scimitar - thats what my primary character uses - I'll just never ask for it to be modified.

[Oli]

We agree then, the high end scimitar IS inferior.
The trade off concerning the mid-range critters is of no relevance to me, a weapon master does not work his way to ultimate level to fight mid range critters.
Anyway now that I heard about an even better dagger, (+20 I have been told) I am afraid that your reasoning about better weapons in reality and history has taken a severe blow along with game balance.
The problem now is even worse because if the bonus is of the enhancement kind, the bonus in AB is also a bonus in damage, making that dagger ( if I have not been told false rumors) the ultimate weapon.
I have played on a server where there was also an ultimate weapon and guess what ? all competitive players ( the ones who participate in tournaments) had the same weapon.
It is far better in my opinion that the differences between high end weapons are much smaller(or non existant), so you can make your choice for esthetical or RP reasons without having to worry about ruining your chances in a competitive situation.
Here we have differences reaching 10 !! and that IS too heavy handed to ignore.
For my part I continue to hope that Makz will see the extent of the imbalance and its consequences.
Oli.
P.S. in reality inferior weapons disappear when exposed to contact with better ones, along with the people who cling to them against the odds.

[MadBernie]

That dagger is a +20 AB, but not enhanced. Big difference. You aren't even going to put a scratch in a high level PC with that.

[clark625]

Bernie's mostly correct--the increase is to AB, and doesn't affect damage.... however, there are more than a couple of builds that use such a dagger mixed with deva crit. For those folks, the STR damage that goes with the hits makes them deal a reasonable amount of damage. Rogues and assassins like the daggers if they plan to sneak attack (any hit works).

That said, the trade-off here is that a high-level mage with epic warding or someone with an ultimate yellow cloak is likely going to regen faster than the damage comes in. So, many characters just go with a weapon that will do the most damage and count on rolling a 20 on their attacks every.... oh, 20 attempts or so. It's all designed to be realatively balanced, and even though it's not 100% perfect, I think it's rather close.


Oh, and more than one person has also gotten to a high level, seen what's available, and made a new character to play based on knowledge of what can be obtained in-game. If you want the uber-PvP killing machine build, it can be made (and has been made). It's just not that important to have if you want to rp and otherwise have fun on Fredian. PvP is less than 1% of what I do, and for my needs, not having a perfect build is acceptable. I'd rather have an interesting character than an uber-fighting machine--but, on Fredian, we all get to have the freedom to choose what we want. Part of the entertainment.

[Silentus]

Thats the beautiful thing Oil, you are welcome to your opinion, embrace it. Others will differ with you greatly however. Note that not everyone is running around using the same weapon - that isnt becasue they are not aware of what they do, its because they have made builds that utilize them differnetly. Frankly I know the overall balance to be pretty good. There are (and always will be) exceptions. I'm really the wrong guy to bother with this (and wont respond anymore) as I simply dont care much for myself as Im more interested in the RP than PvP. I am simply letting you know that the balance is closer than you may believe and encourages radically different character builds.

If you care that much about besting the rest of the players, you might have more fun on a tournament server as we dont really encourage PvP here. We also dont reject it, as long as its in character or in the Arenas. There are plenty here that are aiming at the uber-build... if youre that convinced you can manage it - more power to you. Once you think youre in shape, take on a few and then you can test your opinions


Thats all I have to say, if Makz disagrees, I'm sure he'll say so - and he might, Im just trying to save him the time of having the discussion as he is a busy guy.

Cheers!

[JoScMa]

I believe Percival is assembling a list of all crafted items. This list will be given to Makzimia so he knows if he needs to fill any gaps. He also claimed that he is not one for numbers when it comes to weapons and such, so he relies on the players for input.

As for PvP, not all weapons are equally suited to one another for PvP. Some are still relatively weak, but like Silentus, I won't bother Makzimia about it heh. I don't PvP too often myself. Although I do participate in arena fights in Whillem sometimes. And since my PC, Mackenzie, is a knight, I well expect him to get into PvP fights even though lately it has been quiet. I do admit I am one of those people who try to make a build as good as possible, but maybe because I have the mentality that I might as well make a good build while I am at it.

If Makzimia feels that some weapons need upgrading, I'm sure he will do it in time.

[Naraldur]

Silentus said:

Simply put, some weapons ARE BETTER at certain things than others. Thats simple real world historical fact.

No, no, I refuse to believe it! I WILL win that fencing tournament with a club, AND YOU WILL PUT IN A CLUB FOR ME TO DO IT WITH!!

(joking obviously ;D )

[Oli]

Jocsma said "I believe Percival is assembling a list of all crafted items. This list will be given to Makzimia so he knows if he needs to fill any gaps. He also claimed that he is not one for numbers when it comes to weapons and such, so he relies on the players for input. "

Well since this IS a matter of numbers and not of opinion only, I will give some input...
First those who don't care should just continue to do that, I cant see what harm they might suffer if there is an improvement in that area.
About the club mentionned by Naraldur, I think that actually it would be a good thing if that weapon ( a very important one in indo-european myths, just ask Herakles) allowed a fair chance of winning a melee tournament, just as any other weapon for that matter.

Now I will give as an example a fight between twins of my own character.
With an AB of 67 and an AC of 86 a difference of 1 in enhancement or AB bonus means 33% more hits and a difference of 5 means 3.5 times more hits !
That shows the heavy handedness of AB and enhancement values as a tool to provide a diversity of weapons.
I think it would be far better to use the other variables, and they are many, to obtain a variety of interesting weapons without having too obvious lemons or best buys.

For a weapon to be of reknown, it should, well..., be known.
Since that precise knowledge is not easily available, one must trust that the initial balance between weapons in their raw state will be found the same when one comes to the point of using high end weapons.
The trade offs provided by Bioware to ensure some balance between the weapons in their raw state are not perfect but adequate, and at least maintaining whatever that balance is up to the top notch weapons will make the end results consistent with the initial choices made by the PCs.
Rewarding a shrewd initial assessment (or a faulty one) is preferable IMO to a lottery game or to giving the advantage to inside knowledge.

Oli

[Gealcath]

Reason scimitars are good? Same thing as rapiers, with wm you get a 10-20 crit range, on server like this its used for devestating criticle, which means with a scimitar you can pretty much kill anyone in a single hit unless they have palemaster levels (i still dont think you should have to take 10 palemaster lvls just so you dont get killed in a single hit), and with a scimitar odds are you will get 4 or 5 dev crit attempts each round.

[MitzaVolchenko]

lol...10 levels of PM is a sure avoidance for dev crit, but with a good fort save, concealment, etc. you can force a 20-20-1 roll which can take literally hours to happen.
Heck, become a shifter and use lich form...that avoids dev crit too.

[addicted2rpg]

Tourney statistics show that actually takes anywhere between 25 - 40 minutes.


And in NWN time, thats a looong time.

[kline]

anyone that thinks I can not hurt with the backbiter dagger just come on and lets see. Thats all Getty fights with and I have never had a problem dropping anyone with it including DD and other damage reduction people. Trust me it hurts no matter what you say.