High end monk stuff

[Naraldur]

Just thought I would say that, IIRC, you CAN'T make a weapon with +20 enhancement and have it used by level 40 chars. I don't remember exactly how high you can go and I may be wrong, but I'm reasonably sure. Somebody might check this for me.

[Zhoreb]

TheEvilTit said:

However if you're referring to the alignment restriction chaotic or neutral, that is a stab in the back lol i don't agree with that because then monks (namely lawful) cannot use them.

Stab stab STAB ;D

I do think monks (and all other dex-based builds) may receive some bonus in the damage department, perhaps a little ab as well, but just a little.
With PVM in mind...if you have a dex build, you know how frustrating those heal potions are on a lot of high level monsters, you simply cannot deal damage fast enough to prevent them using the heals.
PvP is frustrating too....your damage -20 or -15 is nothing to laugh about either, thanks to the ultimate cloak in everyone's favorite color. And your AB is nothing better then the ab of a STR build...
So my idea is to give those dexers a bit extra damage potential:

Dagger / Short Sword / kama of the Master.
+15 enhancement
+10 slashing/piercing damage
+10 Massive Criticals
Only usable by characters with Dex 30+
is a restriction like that possible?

But I think the AC of monks is well balanced as it is with the ease you can boost your ability scores here. But the other dex builds could use a little support when it comes to AC. You need to have at least DEX 46 to get the benefit of a higher AC compared to wearing a AoC. If you don't spend a lot of feats on Greater Dexterity, you'd be better off taking Armor Proficiency Heavy, and wear a top notch armor....Oh and RP...well, i'm not talking about that here

Robe of the Master
+10 armor bonus
5/- magic damage reduction
Haste
Freedom
Only usable by characters with DEX 30+
Only usable by characters of neutral or chaotic alignment
hehe, stab stab stab, monks and wizards/sorcerers

[TheEvilTit]

My God, you haven't just stabbed me in the back there, you've fired a nuke into me...lol

Well fine another person who thinks monk ACs shouldn't be increased armor mod wise, so it still stands as +6ac armor mod...

However, you've suggested a robe that monks typically won't be-able to use , and although i take your point on the AC bonus (as well as JoScMa's) i still don't see any reason why there can't be a high end robe made for monks too (that has +6ac armor mod i.e. equal to the Formal kit of endurance) like the one i suggested in my last post.

As for the weapons, i was actually thinking along the lines of monks who use their fists to fight, but if you're going to make a +15enchant kama why not +15enchant gloves, lol i'm just saying that if in the end Naraldur's point is taken because in my opinion he is voicing what i was thinking also when i suggested an ab bonus higher than +10, i mean i realize the other side of the argument is to keep it balanced, but what about the weapons out there which have +15enchant or higher than +10ab already?

I mean look at it this way, imagine i made a monk with weapon focus and all that stuff solely on a longbow or dagger, now further imagine that the composite longbow of distant death (+15ab) and that dagger with +20ab didn't exist, if i came to the forums and requested that these items be made, is it not true that JoScMa's point would still apply, i.e no higher than +10ab to keep balance?

To keep it truly balanced is it not true that all weapons should have no higher than +10ab or enchant, otherwise this gives an unfair ab advantage to the weapon's wielder?

The composite longbow of distant death as an example has +15ab, +10dexterity, and +15mighty (whatever mighty does lol?) so what would be wrong with monk gloves that have say +15ab +10sonic damage +10 bludgeoning damage? Level wise i think those two items would be about the same, and neither the archer nor monk would have an ab advantage against each other, it would be more balanced.

Now i know how you might respond to this, by saying the damage potential on some of the higher ab bonus items (such as that dagger) is low but the damage potentials monks have with the best gloves available, are probably lower than the damage the composite longbow of distant death can do, definitely lower than what the biting bastard sword (+15 enchant and keen) can do, and maybe even lower than the dagger with +20ab ...

[JoScMa]

For your information, monk gloves don't have enhancements on it. Just attack bonuses.

[TheEvilTit]

Sorry i never knew i just assumed they could like other weapons, thanks for the information JoScMa...

Well i guess that obliterates any ideas i said earlier about enchantment bonuses on gloves, lol so please ignore the suggestions i made about putting enchantment bonuses on gloves

lol seriously thanks i would of just kept on going to who knows what end if you hadn't of enlightened me

<EDIT> More spelling errors! so bonuSES only has two Ss

[MitzaVolchenko]

Fascinatingly, Mala who is a terrible overall build hit an 87 AC without wearing AC bonused robes at all. If you are a DEX/WIS build you may not dev crit, but when you slip into empty body, you can trade blows with Mackenzie all day (until you finally fail with a 20/20/1 dev crit check and die).
Her AB sucks no matter what except with a truly brutal and unmonkly weapon in her hands (which of course cuts her attacks per round in half).
I would love to see better monk stuff, but face it, a monk is NOT a fighter.
Mala was designed, once I picked a single direction, to act as the hunting hound for Karl, Mack, and Frost with a fair amount of spy skill. NOBODY escapes a monk in pursuit...the trick is to have your tanks puffing along behind you to kill whoever you are chasing when they finally are cornered. Sure, ya usually end up dead if your empty body ends, but that is what your tanks are for...kill the bad guy, raise you.
*sighs and thinks fondly of running Genesis to ground repeatedly for her tanks to kill him*
And remember, spell resist without being an underdark race! Mala's is even nastier having taken the epic feat a few times...she killed Xilo while smiling and watching his spells fizzle

[TheEvilTit]

<EDIT> oops made another mitake, i've been saying the Formal kit of endurance +5 well in fact it's just called the Formal kit of endurnace, sorry all.

*crashes and explodes in a glorious pyrotechnical display* lol only kiddin, You're right Mala, monks are definitely not fighters, (kinda why i made a defensive build cause i knew my ab was gonna suck anyway), i don't know about others but personally i mainly wanted this shiny new stuff for pvm, (even if +20ab was put on some gloves i'd still pretty much suck at pvp), well i don't really have anything else to say about the ab bonuses i think (but i could always be wrong!) lol. It depends how Makz sees this, i mean i'll only be DEVASTATED if it doesn't get improved, lol again with the kidding

As for damage though you said yourself you resorted to using an unmonky weapon, there's no point in a monk rolling that all important 20 if it aint gonna do anything. I don't think they should have to sacrifice their abilities just to get a decent damage amount that does hurt.

As for a better robe...that's another stab in the back concerning the idea to improve the AC of a monk robe lol Still i don't see how it would hurt to improve/change some of the other stats (compared to the Formal kit of endurance), maybe to something like i suggested^^ lol or at least just to make them more monkish.

By the way i also took those epic sr feats lol not bad, not bad at all.

[Naraldur]

I play monks for the speed.
315% at level 38. I mean, you SNEAK faster than non-barbarians HASTE (157.5% to 150%). It's beautiful man.
Also, since you max at level 38, those last two levels can be whatever you want, not like a dwarven defender who loses his damage reduction 21 by taking even one level from his 30 of defender.

Edit for spelling.

[serpitus]

I have been keeping up with this thread just to see if it goes anywhere. I got a monk and he wears the formal Kilt. As all dex based fighter etc... should. So I don't believe I have misunderstood your input or desires here.

I have also been working extensively on the ATS system and probably have a better than average understanding of what is there in its completeness

Let me enlighten you
there are confirmed
70 weapons per ore category and 14 ore categories with Weapons of reknown that makes 1000 different weapons in the weapons alone!
There are 250 rings to choose from
there are 250 jewelry items to choose from
there are 200 tailored items to choose from
there are 180 armor items to choose from
there are 50 bowyering and fletching items to choose from
An approximate total is 1930 items in the ATS catalogue

If you think something isn't represented for you there are also 1000's of items to choose from in the shops around Fredian.

So to reitterate 1930 items with 11 classes 11 prestige classes 90 race/subrace combinatios and 40 levels to work with I would think that asking for just one more item seems riddiculous. If you can not be satisfied with this diversity and availabilty then you are just one of those people that can't be satisfied. IMHO

[TheEvilTit]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however you’re wrong about me serpitus I am appreciative of the work Makz, and all the other DMs have done, including that concerning ATS system.

This section of the forum is devoted to suggestions and comments is it not?

So what exactly is so ridiculous about my suggestions to make items that from what I have seen do not exist among the 1930 items within the ATS catalogue and thousands of items around Fredian's shops?

If you have actually been following this thread, you would have realised that the only categories of items which are being referred to are gloves and robes, not jewellery, or heavy/medium/light armour, or bows, etc…

From my knowledge there are not thousands of robes or gloves to choose from, moreover I specified high end gloves and robes that monks can use which further limit the selection down, and also I haven’t been talking about any pair of high end gloves usable by monks, only those which are for unarmed fighting purposes. Now how much does that exactly limit the “diversity and availability” down to? I’d say no more than five items at best. So I’m sorry if my satisfaction isn’t met with such choice.

Included in those five items are the various monk gloves + 10 and the Formal kit of endurance, I’ve seen the stats of these items, and in my opinion, improvements should be made (damage potential on the gloves for example). However i am only making suggestions, and if nothing is done then I’ll have to be satisfied with what is available.

The arguments against improving these items (at least in certain ways) are strong, and although I’ve tried to provide counter-arguments which I’m inclined to do since this is a suggestion started by me, I’m not going to be bitter or resentful if my arguments are defeated. I just wanted to make that clear because from what I interpreted from the final line in your post serpitus you seem to be making judgements on my personality and character, which these posts are not meant to represent.

[kline]

Ok to go against your arguement there on how many items there are in the game, and that are avalible for you to wear. Lets ask ourselfs something else. Ok you have what did you say a thousand items in the stores to buy and wear. How many of these thousand items are people accually wearing? Lets say 15% from the total span of a PCs life till he reaches forty. Then he is wearing how many of those items that you can buy after 40th lvl? None most likly. Ok now there are craftible items as well what did you say there was of those? Like ok lets say 2000 ok... that sounds good. Ok now how many of those items are accually used? I would say about 5% of those items are used. The reason being is that they are the items people have to use. If you want to be able to beat up a certain monster or be a good PVPer here you need to use the right stuff. For example almost everyone here when reaching 40th wears these things. AOC, or the white armor; helmet of truth( thanks to Makz also the helmet of gargoles, it use to be eveyone just would wear the helmet of truth); the weapons you use will be related to your class. But if you want to hit PCs or higher up creatures, I found most likly you have to use the back biter or the biting basterd. These two weapons take the cake... Boots are the same way everyone wears the aqua boots, and the aqua belt there the favorates. Necklaces are different they are like the helmets thankfully. Necklaces I have seen many different people wear lots of different things. Rings the same thing lots of different rings people wear.
I am totally with this guy about helping out the other classes and to make everyone here feel as though there charater has power and is a powerful force in them selfs. Monks are not fighters? ummmm yes they are . They train all day at there skills in speed and at fighting with there hands.
Now the thing is this. Makz has really worked and works hard at this land and to make it look as good as it does. He is great at making things look as good as they do. I can put modules together and lands and build stuff all day. But can I do what he does no, I have tried my stuff never looks as good. I dont spend much time at looking at those details. Now what I do do is play with numbers and builds. I have been literally building PCs for years lots of them I never even played I would just roll them out see what they looked like and trash them. Makz has always said he was never a big D&D player or anything. I was..
Now you are wondering where I am going I know but I have been trying to straighten out the weapon situation here in Fredian and the armors and everything else it use to not be as good as it is now. All I am saying is all in time people all in time.

[TheEvilTit]

I agree completely with everything you've wrote there kline, and i'm more than willing to wait for a verdict from Makz because i understand how extremely busy he is.

[Zhoreb]

serpitus said:

I got a monk and he wears the formal Kilt. As all dex based fighter etc... should.
(..)
If you can not be satisfied with this diversity and availabilty then you are just one of those people that can't be satisfied. IMHO

If all dex based fighters should wear the Formal Kilt, why do we need diversity then?
Ok, just joking. No more backstabbing. ;D

We shouldn't be complaining at all about the ATS...1930 items you probably won't find on any other world. I am completely happy as it is. Finding THE right balance will never happen. There will always be a <insert favorite race>/<insert favorite class(es)> combination that will draw the shortest straw.

But IMHO, the current balance with all this diversity seems to favor STR melee builds, and high AC tanks...including the Xilo like wizards.

[Naraldur]

Zhoreb said:

There will always be a <insert favorite race>/<insert favorite class(es)> combination that will draw the shortest straw.

NO! I WILL succeed with my <Elven>/<Wizard-Dwarven Defender> and NEITHER YOU NOR SOURCE CODE SHALL STOP ME!

;D

[Zhoreb]

Did I mention I really, Really don't like stabs in the back?