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Post by Silentus on Dec 31, 2003 18:48:03 GMT
I want to propose this criminal justice system to our community. Makz purused it and felt it worthy of at least a vote and if people like the concept, then revision from our populace here in the forums. It is lengthy, but please read it and vote, as whiners have no rights if they gave no opinions 
Vote and make suggestions - please!
PURPOSE for this SYSTEM - I propose this STRICTLY as an RP device that (somewhat) parallels reality. This should NEVER be constured as a way to attempt to punish players for inappropriate OOC actions - that is the domain DMs ONLY. 1. ACCUSATION OF CRIMEUpon a crime being committed, the offended party(s) must approach the appointed magistrate(s) to report what has occured. If the alleged crime is punishable by law (usually only theft and homicide) AND if there are witnesses to the event other than the Plantiff and Defendant a trial will be held. Reported crimes held in Styne and Castille City areas are automatically witnessed accurately if a NPC is within direct line of sight of the crime (might need revision as this would require players to accuratly tell the moderator what really happened reguardless of thier characters interest. Some people have alot of trouble separating player vs character).2. SUMMONS OF INVOLVED PARTIESAll parties believed to have involvement and witnesses will be summoned to court (together or separtely depending on player availability) Those who do not voluntarily come to the court within a reasonable time span will have a public bounty placed upon them to be delived to the court. (via Shout from DM every once in a while? in the journal? here on the forums?)2a. BOUNTIES - Enforced law with guards cannot work properly in Fredian as many cannot and will not recognise authority here due to thier involentary transport to this place. A bounty based system of law may need to be employed to enforce people (characters) to bend to the will of proper justice. Bounties consist of XP bonuses in 250 xp increments depending on length of non-compliance and seriousness of offence and equal value in gold. (this might need a level limit) To collect a bounty, ANY character (except the accused) must: A. See the offender in the greater Styne city areas or Castille City areas (wild areas are NOT enforced - fugitives can reside forever outside the cities) B. Tell the character they are under arrest (so the character knows who squeeled on them, IC PK is a threat in Bounty hunting - no special XP compensation will be offered if PKed in bounty dispute) C. Get the guards (Accurately 'Tell' a DM the area that the offender is in for proof of bounty claim) D. Any character caught by a bounty hunter will remain imprisoned until he/she can be tried (see section 4.5 below) 3. TRIALa. Trials will be judged by the magistrate oncall (initially only 1 - others may be appointed by Merrick Wend, or by popular vote if he wishes it) b. Negative verdicts require reasonable proof of guilt (innocent untill proven guilty beyond any reasonable doubt) c. Crimes commited in the city areas will be very difficult to defend due to NPC (automatic) witnesses 4. SENTANCING (generic)Proposed punishments for charater crimes are as follows, note that many (3 and up) would likely only apply to repeat offenders (serial killers and the likes). Combinations of punishments could be used if appropriate. ......1. Repairations ......2. Short term jail stay (x rl minutes - released by DM interaction? REALLY hard lock? Special key?)......3. Forfeiture of all 'on person' possesions ......4. Forfeiture of bank account ......5. Long term prison stay (x rl hours? days? In a restricted cell with no escape options short of DM interaction. That way other characters could come to the jail and RP with them thru the bars, but they couldnt leave. Area would have to be made so after a crash character would still be in cell - Cell at lower right edge of map area  ......6. Forfeiture of residence (if applicable) 5. REPAIRATIONSIn all cases, the court will distribute compensation to the victim(s) taken from the convicteds funds/property ......a. Homocide cases:......200,000 gold ......b. Theft cases:.............Stolen item (or items value if item is no longer available) and 3 times stolen item(s) value?
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Post by Phoenix on Dec 31, 2003 19:22:18 GMT
I picked no, we need different system. There are RP and server rule lines that are being mixed here, IMO. Any justice system should be RP only. Any player abuse should be handled by server rules/DMs. I'll try to reply with my issues to your numbered points.
1. Does this apply to PCs only or NPCs as well?
2. Sounds good, a public forum here current bounties would be good as well.
2a.b. What if a character doesn't want to be arrested? Fight/chase ensues? Or is this a proposed server rule?
3.a. Judges should be appointed or elected by town leadership, then get DM approval, for RP reasons...
3.c. 'Automatic witenss' assumes there was actually someone there. What if there wasn't? What if I killed someone in the castle and no one was around (IE I made sure of it first). Or what if I killed all the witnesses?
4. I have several points here, more generalized. Many of the punishments don't follow RP, an unpenetrable jail cell? What's up with that? no chance for a jail break? Waiting until the server crashes what the RP there? Sometimes the server dump in 20 minutes, other times it's many many hours. This doesn't seem fair since the 'punishment' could vary depending on server stability. Also, as you step up it seems more like punishing a player for abuse. I mean remove all thier possesions and temporary banning sound like methods for punishing players who are abusing the rules, not people breaking the laws.
In short I think this is WAY to harsh. If this were implemented I 1/2 the server COULD be in jail within a week, both evil and good, mostly evil. If you want to rid your server of evil people implement this, as the only evil thing left that wouldn't result in a ban is talking trash. Remember, when making a change like this, ask yourself, will it be fun for all involved? Bannings and loss of equipment doesn't sound fun.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I poke as many holes in any given plan as I can. If it stands it's probably good.
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Post by Silentus on Dec 31, 2003 14:13:55 GMT
Dont feel bad Pheonix, this is the kind of responsible critisism that I was requesting  In responce to each of your items: 1.[/u] Only PCs could report a crime. If no one reports it, no one knows or cares. 2.[/u] I agree that a bounty area in the forums here would be a good idea. a&b.[/u] Im sure in many cases the accused will NOT go peacefully. The implication here is that the BH (bounty hunter) finds the character and alerts the guard. The reason for the attempt at a citizens arrest first is WHOLEY for the accused. It gives them the opportunity to to disable (kill, bribe, whatever) the BH before or flee as soon as possible (creating a real fugitive feel when in city areas). If the characer doesnt do either, he is captured by the guard (DMs) for imprisonment till trial (note, if character meets summons to begin with, no bounty hunter is needed) 3a.[/u] Im not against public votes either at all. The reason I gave Merrick Wend first dibs is that there is no town leadership currently. Merrick stated that he would be taking a more active role in Styne politics, something like this may be it after what happened from the popular vote last time (absolutley no offence to player Sniven about that - thats what drives this whole topic). 3c.[/u] Im not totally sold on the auto-witness, but I felt it important to make the city areas 'safer' with regaurd to death and thieving. Thus, in the city it is not simply a 'my-word-against-yours' as wild areas are. Part of the reason for our problems on the last attempt is that with the intense politics that occur, frequently no true impartial witnesses are around - these are those. Wild area confrontations need a PC witness to prosecute. 4.[/u] Where to start . Player Banning:[/u] I don't like that idea - just threw it out there. I would like to see the impenetrable prison idea. Plus that way when a character was in prison, he could RP thru the bars, or log in as another while that charcter serves his sentance. Why impenatrable:[/u] In my mind, there is no other way. Everyone around here is a super hero, so the prison would be supermax to meet that. HOWEVER, I completely feel that if a DM wants to get involved in a jail break RP scenario - great! That sounds like alot of fun. Short term jail terms:[/u] I dont think there is any threat of the server beingup a week but I was trying to write this with less DM interaction needed. We could certainly reduce the sentance greatly if the DMs are ok with releasing people manually. Punishing Players by temporary banning:[/u] Yes, that woud be a Player punishment, which I frankly didnt think of initially, I will remove that via edit right now. This would require a character prison to work. Punishing players by taking thier stuff:[/u] Not in the slightest - that is complete and total character punishment, no effect on thier other characters (if they have any) Way to harsh:[/u] Definately could be, thats why I posted it - I think the basis is good, but revision is needed. The sentancing was my own personal feel, certainly open for lots of debate (eesh, even Magistrates could make thier own - that would be chaotic 1/2 the server in jail:[/u] Nah, we really are only talking about murder and theft (which must be observed by the victim to even begin any process), and really pretty much in the citys only. Ridding the server of Evil:[/u] I dont want that AT ALL. Quite the opposite, however I think (similar to real society) that if someone gets caught doing wrong and it can be proven - consequenses should be paid. I think this will encourage smarter evil. Thanks again for your feedback Phoenix! |
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Post by Makzimia on Dec 31, 2003 14:14:23 GMT
For the record, I did not personally propose any of this. That being said, some of it is ok by me, others, well.... I think as I told Silentus, players should decide what they think is reasonable. I just personally want all to have fun, as long as it is not at the expense of others fun.
Then I get cranky.
Makz.
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Post by Radog on Dec 31, 2003 17:36:03 GMT
I like it...
Radog
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Post by AvengersWraith on Jan 1, 2004 0:29:49 GMT
Judicial systems should only be in townships and cities.
Guards should scripted to be looking for violent activity, whether against the beggar, a farmers chicken (lively hood) or against other players. Killing an NPC character should be a serious event, automatic loss of a level. Killing an NPCs chicken or cow should have fines and imprisonment until the fines are paid, it is causing hardship on the imaginary population; look at how things were done in history and imagine you are committing the crime against a real person, 150 years ago in the United States rustlers upsetting peoples lively hood were lynched, stealing in some countries resulted in loss of a hand or life.
A lot of players will revolt at the thought of any type of authority over them, maybe instead of a judicial system, the farmers and their friends should attack characters that kill their cows and chickens. Merchants in that community stop selling them wares are allowing them in their facilities.
The concepts sound good and with a lot of work could be implemented, but I do not think it needs to be added at this time.
My vote will be no becaus eof the undue stress it will cause on Mak and Nat to implement a good system and because of all the players who will retaliate.
If you want to make changes, here is a scenario that happened with me and Dauntless. He asked me to go with him my first day here. I did, not know where anything was at the time. On the way to the harbor he killed a badger out of the blue that wasn't attacking him nor was he collecting the hide or meat. I asked he not kill animals just for the sake of killing them and he agreed and stopped. A couple days later I saw him kill a chicken just because he could. the next time he asked me to go with him I told him about how I asked he not kill animals just because the first we travelled together and how I saw him kill a chicken; right around this part he took off, guess he didn't want the lecture. Nag, nag, nag; better than sending someone to jail.
I think people standing up for their beliefs will make more of an impact on other characters than a judicial system.
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Post by addicted2rpg on Jan 1, 2004 4:37:23 GMT
If player A kills B and the guards see it, as a DM I might throw player A in the brig in Ranastadt until he has a friend go let him out. If A did it out of no RP whatsoever and was just running around attacking people for the heck of it, a very different punishment (possibly banning) would result. Same action, two different punishments. Having said the above, the proposed does a freaky blurring of the lines, because a plaintiff could file a report from an IC point of view (and if that character is evil, the charge can even be false). Then there is filing a report from an OOC point of view, when a person feels violated at server rule violations. A jury of peers to decide? Perhaps, if we can get any two players to agree on what roleplaying is or isn't. Conceptually, codifying things in writing is on the right track though. My solution is a question. The draft needs more clarity- What is its statement of purpose and extend of jurisdiction? Sure, it is a system, but for resolving what? Banishable crimes (breach of server conduct) or just so and so RP'd like a murderer so we are going to RP like we're going to lock him up like what we do to murderers Before spending too much time on the system itself, its really important that we list what it does and doesn't cover. Apparently we had some problems with some knights not fully knowing their roles. Had it with a viceroy, too. The process is well defined though, if a bit lengthly. |
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Post by Silentus on Jan 1, 2004 8:23:04 GMT
Maybe I should state my intent with this whole thing - I really see it as an RP thing only. At NO time did I consider this as a means to punish players for ooc PKing or other inappropriate ooc actions, that is purely a DM role. That said, as we got more people here on the island, IC personalities stated clashing more and more and primarily in public city locations. It only stands to reason that the populace (including NPCs) would want to have thier urban areas be a safe place in which to live and do business. As many players here enjoy RPing, this seemed like a fun avenue to pursue. Those who dont RP should really be uneffected as it they dont RP they shouldnt be attacking other players (although thieveing I suppose could kinda be blurry there). Avenger: I agree wholeheartedly and commend you for your actions. My characters and others have frequently had harsh words for characters beating up on Derto and the Chicken. Heck, many of us have RPed with NPCs at some length. As stated above, I see this as pure RP goodness, nothing to do with trying to restrict player behavior. Addicted: Excellent point with the IC false charges - poses a HUGE problem with the auto-witness too. That definatly needs a re-think... Sorry it is lengthy (I'm prone to that . Most of it is in sentancing which currently does not need to be fully laid out, I put it in as I was thinking about the system - but in the end if something like this gets used it will hammer out differently Im sure. I will re-edit the original message again with a 'mission statement' and a simplification of sentacing for now. |
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Post by Makzimia on Jan 1, 2004 9:26:06 GMT
FYI on the subject of the chicken he is animal faction, and in fact, they and commoners do have an affinity, and in turn, defenders ( guards) are 100% freindly in faction to commoners and PC's... SO... with a guard around, if they did notice that action, they would in fact attack any PC that was doing that. I am not going to get further involved in this discussion yet, as it has a LONG way to play out, and be argued by even more players yet, lack of general consensus in my opinion though, which is VERY likely, will mean no system. Rules are in place, DM's are on, if the situation requires that type of intervention, it can be done, rest, is up to players to sort out I guess... as addicted said even Knights were overstepping their marks. But I have to take some blame for that as I did not obviously make it clear enough what that meant to be one. Makz. |
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Valen
Young One
Posts: 32
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Post by Valen on Jan 1, 2004 13:41:31 GMT
I love the idea....
I hope to see it in place....... ;D
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Post by Phoenix on Jan 1, 2004 16:43:19 GMT
[/u] Im not totally sold on the auto-witness, but I felt it important to make the city areas 'safer' with regaurd to death and thieving. Thus, in the city it is not simply a 'my-word-against-yours' as wild areas are. Part of the reason for our problems on the last attempt is that with the intense politics that occur, frequently no true impartial witnesses are around - these are those. Wild area confrontations need a PC witness to prosecute. Why impenatrable:[/u] In my mind, there is no other way. Everyone around here is a super hero, so the prison would be supermax to meet that. HOWEVER, I completely feel that if a DM wants to get involved in a jail break RP scenario - great! That sounds like alot of fun. Short term jail terms:[/u] I dont think there is any threat of the server beingup a week but I was trying to write this with less DM interaction needed. We could certainly reduce the sentance greatly if the DMs are ok with releasing people manually. Punishing Players by temporary banning:[/u] Yes, that woud be a Player punishment, which I frankly didnt think of initially, I will remove that via edit right now. This would require a character prison to work. Punishing players by taking thier stuff:[/u] Not in the slightest - that is complete and total character punishment, no effect on thier other characters (if they have any) Way to harsh:[/u] Definately could be, thats why I posted it - I think the basis is good, but revision is needed. The sentancing was my own personal feel, certainly open for lots of debate (eesh, even Magistrates could make thier own - that would be chaotic 1/2 the server in jail:[/u] Nah, we really are only talking about murder and theft (which must be observed by the victim to even begin any process), and really pretty much in the citys only. Ridding the server of Evil:[/u] I dont want that AT ALL. Quite the opposite, however I think (similar to real society) that if someone gets caught doing wrong and it can be proven - consequenses should be paid. I think this will encourage smarter evil. Thanks again for your feedback Phoenix![/quote] AutoWitness: Still don't like it, the 'safe haven' part is the fact that there are laws in town, and not outside. That's doesn't make them safe, though. AutoWitenss would be the stop 99.9% of all crimes in that area, which doesn't seem realistic. Impenatrable: Even supermax prisions have escapes. People escaped from Alcatraz, may not have made it alive, but escaped none the less. Maybe it's not a matter of just picking the locks while hidden. Maybe it's a fight to get in/out. Could still be well defended, just not impossible. Removal if Items: Yes it is 100% character punishment, but so is cutting the hands off of theives and mages, or death by hanging (perm. death of some sorts). If you could implement that would you? No, it's not fun. Neither is losing all you EQ. Not every player is a crafter. They may have never needed to, and find theselves w/o means to replace that stuff for weeks (RL). For others it could mean losing 1 of a kind items or special crafted things... 1/2 the serer in jail: Implement this and watch my evil character exploit it. I will be murdered a lot, mostly paladins and dwarves who RP. Not to hard to irritate them into combat. Then there's the evil people who DO murder and steal. A system like this would be a great tool for paladin/guards to RP with and would try to use it as much as possible (that would be thier job). Ridding of evil: A crime system won't remove evil, one that has autowitnesses and bannings for doing things evil people SHOULD be doing will. How could evil operate in that envirnment? Your welcome for the thoughs, thanks for your time and Makz's. It's much more appreciated.  |
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Post by Silentus on Jan 1, 2004 17:11:54 GMT
AutoWitenss would stop 99.9% of crime:Still not buying that. the key is REPORTED (by PCs only) crime (murder victim cant even report it if he doesnt make his d20 meory roll, and NPCs cant report it). Kinda immaterial anyway though after Addicteds post about IC false accuasaitions - needs work to say the least, removal is not out of the question.
Even supermax prisions have escapes: Dont dispute that, but it is WAY under .01%. If you make a non-rp way of excaping though a whole lot more that will get thru. I maintain that RP with DM involvement is the only way to get out of that. I'm gunna just agree to disagree and let others have thier opinions.
100% character punishment: To me (personally), I would look forward to that - but Im pretty hardcore RP. But thats why I amended the original post rmoving specific sentancing - if people want to adopt something like this, we can try to beat that into shape later.
1/2 the serer in jail: I thik youre wrong on the paladins - dwarves thoug , dont think that many would take the bait 'in town with witnesses' - those that do, all the better, more fun to RP.
Ridding of evil: A crime system won't remove evil, one that has autowitnesses and bannings for doing things evil people SHOULD be doing will. How could evil operate in that envirnment? I already dropped the banning thing after your first post and wholeheartedly agree. I've put in my opionion about autowitness, but it has issues that at veryleast need work - basically these 2 are dead issues for now.
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Post by Shwabba on Jan 1, 2004 22:06:11 GMT
Well, after reading everyone's opinions and reviewing all the different propositions, I'm afraid I have to vote no. It's not that I don't like the system, I actually think it is an excellent starting ground. There are, however, several points that need to be reworked or tweaked out before it would be workable. For my 2 cents on the subject, ALL legal systems are abusable, and they SHOULD be. That's why we have Lawful Evils in the world ;D It is my opinion that the first step in creating a working legal system would be to actually make laws (maybe a listing of them?). So far all we have is no murder and no theft. But are those the *only* laws in the lands of Fredian? I'm fairly certain there's a law against holding the mayor down and pouring tar and feathers all over him. I'm pretty sure there's a law against tying someone up and making them smell your socks. (If not, boy am I gonna have some fun! muwahahah). I think it would be nice to have some laws set down in writing, if for no other reason than to avoid "Hey, it's against the law to brandish weapons" "No it's not" "Yes it is" "Nuh-uh" "Yuh-huh" (ad nauseum) type of arguments. After we get the exact laws down (and maybe create signs on the outskirts of the towns stating the laws) then we could more accurately determine the best way to uphold those laws.
Well, just my opinion, anyway.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Shwabbaman
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Druga
Young One
Posts: 22
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Post by Druga on Jan 1, 2004 22:47:24 GMT
One additional idea I have for the bounty hunting would be to add in, when placing a bounty on someone, they must be given a chance to approve the bounty on them. This would ensure that the character is truly going to play along. It might reduce the amount of hurt feelings that seem to come from an unprepared person getting involved in this type of an event.
The bounty system might be abusable in it presently stated form:
IE I kill someone, get a bounty on me, get my friend online to catch me and collect the exp reward.
For now, I will abstain in voting, since the system is still not ready for prime time. We need to give a system like this alot of consideration before we put it into our favorite passtime ;D
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Post by Silentus on Jan 2, 2004 8:30:50 GMT
I did originally considered the options for abuse with teh bounty XP reward and had compensated by the following (Both these would keep a player from PKing to help a friend get XP) : 1. Harsh sentancing (since removed as it was too advanced for this stage of the discussion) 2. Small XP bountys (250xp) that grow with time so others have ample opportunity by the time the bounty is worth much. I agree with the player notification idea though - it will definately help people know what is expected before someone comes at them seeking bounty. Also it will help anyone that kills and then logs off for a week and is surprised when a bunch of BHers are after him/her |
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