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Post by Silentus on Jan 29, 2004 19:04:02 GMT
Now let us look into who shall say what is or is not just, how much leeway they have and who enforces the law. Note we are not talking about punishments and penalties yet. The synapses of the v.2 thread entailed the following:
….. 3 ….. Knights opinion is law
….. 2 ….. No trials
….. 1 ….. NPC and twon residents automatically hold precedence in trial
….. 1 ….. player character vs. player character - the character with the most people siding with them wins or we could have trial by combat
I pose to you the following questions:
1. Who is the judge/jury?
…..a. The knights/enforcers
…..b. Individual justices appointed by King Wend
…..c. Elected Justices
…..d. A King Wend apppointed board
…..e. An elected board
…..f. (Other that I didnt mention)
2. Who enforces the laws?
…..a. Knights appointed by King Wend (all scenarios)
…..b. Knights appointed by Justices (1b-1c scenraios only)
…..c. Knights appointed by the judicial board (1d-1e scenarios only)
…..d. Knights appointed by general election (all scenarios)
…..e. (others I didnt think of)
3. How much leeway should the law enforcement have?
…..a. Full autonomy: Arrest & imprison without reservation (1a scenario only)
…..b. Partial autonomy: Arrest & imprison upon suspition of any crime (1a scenario only)
…..c. Restricted Autonomy: Arrest on suspicision, imprison on reasonable proof (all scenarios)
…..d. Full Enforcement: Arrest on suspision, imprisoned after trial only (1b - 1e scenarios only)
…..e. Restricted Enforcement: Arrest & Imprison only on direct sight of crime
…..f. (other that I didnt think of)
------- My personal take --------
Considering we are aiming at simplistic implementaion right now, I am for the following options:
1a - anything else may come later, but right now woud be a nightmare.
2a - same reason, to get started
3c - Again. at the initial inception only. If the Knights are the juctices, there is little difference between 3a and 3c, but if we change who the justices are down the road, I think this is the way to head.
Note, currently I propose NO difference to our current martial law with respect to the enforcement/judiciary process. I do think changes in some of the crimes (mentined in previsous topic) and in Punishment (coming after this) should be started though. I think for initial institution of this, the trial system (or lack therof) is the best. I would like to see RADICAL changes in this down the road though.
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Post by Spathic on Jan 29, 2004 22:00:56 GMT
I am all for trial by combat... Especially in cases of theft or with questionable/judgement-call basis (insult to one's honor, disturbing the peace, Heratical practices., etc.,)
I think for resolution of player VS player murder, a jury trial with the ranking knight acting as the judge. The jury should be pulled from non-witness characters so as not to taint the outcome... a 5 man panel should be fine...
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Post by Phoenix on Jan 29, 2004 22:21:27 GMT
One point about the synapes, I thought the knight's opinion being law had to do with the current martial law system. In a more normal system I don't feel a knight's opinion is law, the law is the law. Right now we don't have written laws, so it's their opinion.
1. A. For simplicity if not anything else. You can arrest and jail someone on the spot. Otherwise the process of convening a judge/jury will be hard (not available, or not on line). If we were determining something like banishment from the town, a jury, but X minutes in the jail, a knight is good enough.
2. A. I would preffer to see a knight type figures, much the way it is now. However, there should be recourse for contesting a knights word/actions.
Kings appoint knights, not justices or elections. So the terms here should change. If you want cops, then it's more of a city guard, not a knight. Guards could be appointed by whomever.
3. C. Since I want the knight as cops thing, I think this fits best. Since a knight probably wouldn't arrest someone with mere suspicion, due to their moral code.
Trials of any sort would be too cumbersome. Try to get 5 people who didn't witness said event + criminal + judge + others if necessary is asking a lot for a small event (PvP murder takes seconds, so does stealing). I don't want to see 6 people spend 30 minutes (each)sorting out an event between 2 people that took 30 seconds.
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Post by AvengersWraith on Jan 30, 2004 1:50:40 GMT
King Wend appoints his most trusted knights, paladins preferably, to be judge, jury and executioner.
If the knight/paladin is uncertain of what happened he can impose punishment on all parties for creating a disturbance.
If prisoner wishes and King Wend is not to busy he can appeal to the King if he feels he was wrongly imprisoned or that the punishment is to harsh. This does not gaurantee King Wend will have the time, he may appoint a second knight/paladin to review the case. While waiting for an appeal, unless it was banishment from a town, the appellant shall remain in prison (will probably reduce appeals for fast issues, right or wrong unless a character has moral issues for being punished wrongly).
The knight/paladin has the right to ALLOW trial by combat which he will supervise to ensure fairness. Trial by combat is not gauranteed, and should not be held near NPC Gaurds, but an out of the way location nearby. Old customs had duels set for a later time so parties involved could prepare, will be important for various reasons, but shouldn't require more than 5 real minutes. A character who fails to appear is considered to have been proven guilty.
An accused can claim INNOCENT, NO CONTEST due to lack of witnesses or evidence. For many, this will allow them to retain integrity although they must accept punishment.
BREAKDOWN:
Knights/paladins are judge, jury, executioners as well as police officers.
An appeal system is in place.
Innocent, No Contest be added to allow those who are not required to maintain a certain level of goodness or lawfulness to be expedited through the system.
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Post by Adyanna79 on Jan 30, 2004 4:26:30 GMT
I find that the idea of the knights being the whole of the process is a shame... Because then the rp is mostly for that type of char...
We want to involve the whole of the people... like the real justice system we want a board of our pers for the jury wich I would say should be 3 or 5 char at random...
For the enforcers I would only trust general election...In this situation.
And for the "leeway" That is the though one... Many will debate if you say there is room... and that will break the rp...
and then many will say it's unfair if they have all the power... so it's a catch 22
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Post by Makzimia on Jan 30, 2004 5:01:23 GMT
The knights are only current, due to martial law, which came into effect when it was obvious the newish arrivals of Fredian were not ready for Frost etc in local governing.
Hence why this is all being thrashed out.
Makz.
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Post by MysaidesCaldier on Jan 30, 2004 5:39:43 GMT
First off Phoenix?  ?30 minutes debating a crime and it circumstance is something I think most role players would enjoy.  I feel that most move on to quickly without weighing consequesnces.Count me as one of those peole as well, but I would love to take an hour maybe two trying to get out of some trouble with the law. Hell you can even summon me and I will have representation or my person in the court when called.I am pleadeing to you now do not overlook the potential of a slow chaotic system. This would be as I have said much more fun then a supposed wonderfully constructed code of laws and rehearsed justice. One official giving a ruling and then it being appealed to another official who is on the take so on and so forth have a good mix of people as judges and and such so that conflict and intrigue are unavoidable ;D Appointments of grunts is a good call I think. But as for diplomats and justices I am going to have to go with elections or some sponsorship method. Any Knight investigating a crime is in the moment of the situation. While a good justice sees what the case and the crime will do as far as the impact on the populace, aristocracy, others guards list goes on. So in the end muscle and brains. Not in one basket please;) BTW hehe 1.C 2.B 3.C |
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sniven
Young One
Assassins do it from behind :)
Posts: 23
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Post by sniven on Jan 30, 2004 10:50:39 GMT
There is a very simple saying that i was told one day playing football. our coach said remember this and everything will go fine.
Keep it simple stupid!
Yes that is it if you want it to work and work with little hassle to everyone. Dont over think it, if you want involved with crime and punishment make a pc that can be a knight. Really give us all the toys and too many rules and it will fall apart.
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Post by AvengersWraith on Jan 30, 2004 13:03:56 GMT
For plots involving group a scheming to undermine another player or guild, then a trial be scheduled and held, but for the vast majority of the criminal behaviour we see daily, let the knights/paladins be police officers, judge, jury and executioner.
I was swept into some RP involving a character claiming several characters were plotting against Frost. When enough evidence is obtained to confirm this I would say, attempt to apprehend parties involved and then hold a public trial. These incidents can lead to good RP, but for a 3rd level rogue getting caught trying to pick Derto's pockets or an evil priest sacrificing Derto than a knight/paladin would be more than sufficient.
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Post by Preedy1978 on Jan 30, 2004 14:33:46 GMT
*smug* Ive been saying that all along Sniven.....
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Post by Phoenix on Jan 30, 2004 16:17:20 GMT
MysaidesCaldier, If you have RPed with me you know I'm not against long winded RPs. Just ask the person I enslaved last night. ^.^
But I'm also a a fan of KISS, and I just don't think that the number of crimes commited (I see several a night) would be handled by a system that took 30 minutes to hours to RP out. Nor do I think the rest of the server is that heavy into RP.
Adyanna79, don't think about it so limited. Even in a knight is judge/jury/executationer situation there are still several roles to play. You have the knight (who says this has to be a fighter type, approach the king and become one, or find out how), the criminal, the victim, the witnesses, criminal's friends, the victim's friends. The knight doesn't have 'all the RP'.
Keep the discussion going folks! But most of all have fun!
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Post by MysaidesCaldier on Jan 30, 2004 20:42:02 GMT
I know you can Rp Phoenix I was not even questioning that. Fun thing I think would come from a system that took to long... Would be that most crimes would go unreported and unpunished. ;D Wow that sounds like it might be a comparison or something? Swift justice carried out by the person who is investigating, I promise will lead to deaths of innocent pcs and build resentment for the administration. Not that wouldn't also be fun, but you have to look at how in the longrun the system looks to others. Knights right now have power that most will not deny. They have been selected by King Merrick Wend and are his Knights. This fact alone should force either fear or respect into most Pcs. I do have to agree with Adyanna though it is a shame that the knights are the only ones involved in the process. Not to say they do a bad job. I would just like to see a pcs that is not their friend not their colleague oppose a ruling every once and awhile. Or some spectacular in fights between competing knights. Another thing that really worries me is I see that a few knights are no longer on Fredian for any amount of time. So we have lost the diversity of opinions we had a few months ago.
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Post by Phoenix on Jan 30, 2004 21:12:26 GMT
Interesting thought about the flip side, a long draw out trial... But if were trying to have a system that handles justice, why should that very system discourage using it? Seems self defeating.
Sorry I can't comment about the people before, I'v only been here about 2 months. The only people l I really see acting as knights are Karl and Mack, so that's all I really know here. That being said new blood might help as well.
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Post by ride on Jan 30, 2004 21:38:02 GMT
...have a system that handles justice, why should that very system discourage using it? Seems self defeating. now *that* sounds like RL to me... lol ok I just had an idea on this (at least I think it fits in with all this) I'm thinking of a magistrate council made up of PC's chosen (or elected or whatever) one being "good", one in the "middle" and one "not so good", that way not all the views in the council go against or for "one way" of doing things. (obviously this is not quite done forming in my head) the knights can continue they're job, jailing (or whatever they do, I have yet to witness a "jailing"  ) *obvious* offenders. anything else gets escalated to this council... sort of a "I don't agree with you knight, take me to see a magistrate" kinda thing.... just trying to think of a k.i.s.s. way to give all sides a view.... I don't know *groans* |
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Post by Silentus on Jan 30, 2004 23:30:42 GMT
Ok, time for me to reign this back in again Please try to keep in mind that RIGHT NOW we are only trying to get something in place. I expect that all told, this issue will be the hardest one to bring to full maturity. I fully intend that down the road we will enhance things a little at a time - and for me separating out judge from enforcer and having multi-judge trials available for high profile crimes are high on my list. For now though, in an attempt to keep it simple, lets only consider the following options. We should revisit this again once we have something in play, but getting an acceptable board in place would be a major undertaking and likely would end up in a scrapping of the whole thing (again). I pose to you the following questions:
1. Who is the judge/jury?
…..a. The knights/enforcers
…..b. Individual justices appointed by King Wend…..c. (Other that I didnt mention)
2. Who enforces the laws?
…..a. Knights appointed by King Wend (all scenarios)
…..b. Deputy appointed by Justices (1b scenraio only)
…..c. (others I didnt think of)
3. How much leeway should the law enforcement have?
…..a. Full autonomy: Arrest & imprison without reservation (1a scenario only)
…..b. Restricted Autonomy: Arrest on suspicision, imprison on reasonable proof to Justice (1b scenario only)
…..c. Restricted Enforcement: Arrest & Imprison only on direct sight of crime (1a sceanrio)
…..d. (other that I didnt think of)
4. Alternative guilt determinations
…..a. Trial by combat alowed across the board
…..b. Trial by combat allowed only if approved by Knight (or Justice)
…..c. No trial by combat------- My personal take -------- 1a 2a 3a 4c - Trial by combat at this time is another unnesacary complication (in expectation to what it means to the next discussion - punnishment). This is yet another thing I think we should consider after we have established a base system. |
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?30 minutes debating a crime and it circumstance is something I think most role players would enjoy. 
I feel that most move on to quickly without weighing consequesnces.Count me as one of those peole as well, but I would love to take an hour maybe two trying to get out of some trouble with the law. Hell you can even summon me and I will have representation or my person in the court when called.I am pleadeing to you now do not overlook the potential of a slow chaotic system. This would be as I have said much more fun then a supposed wonderfully constructed code of laws and rehearsed justice. One official giving a ruling and then it being appealed to another official who is on the take so on and so forth have a good mix of people as judges and and such so that conflict and intrigue are unavoidable ;D Appointments of grunts is a good call I think. But as for diplomats and justices I am going to have to go with elections or some sponsorship method. Any Knight investigating a crime is in the moment of the situation. While a good justice sees what the case and the crime will do as far as the impact on the populace, aristocracy, others guards list goes on. So in the end muscle and brains. Not in one basket please;)
) *obvious* offenders. anything else gets escalated to this council... sort of a "I don't agree with you knight, take me to see a magistrate" kinda thing....
"There are only three sports--mountain climbing, bullfighting, and motor racing--all the rest being games." Ernest Hemingway 