Punishment pt1 - Types (Topic closed)

[Silentus]

Now let us look into what is the appropriate punishement should guilt be determined/decided. Note that I expect this to be the hardest topic to agree upon. It will be open (much) longer than the other two topics were to attempt to get more voters. The synopses of the v.2 thread entailed the following:

….. 2 ….. 5 minutes for all crimes
…. -4 ….. Killing (PC or NPC) 5000 XP Penalty, 5000 GP Restitution and choice of public execution (normal respawn penalties) or 5 game clock hours of prison time
….. 3 ….. 10 - 20 minutes for all crimes (cumulative for multi offence)
….. 3 ….. Public Gallows (can it be done)
….. 3 ….. 30 min for Murder
….. 5 ….. Repeat offenders get enslaved (optional)
….. 2 ….. Public & Private Jail cells
….. 0 ….. Some possesion removal
…. -2 ….. 100 random question jail sentence
….. 2 ….. Character option for Execution (normal XP loss, but no jail term)
….. 1 ….. Buy out of prison
….. 0 ….. Leniency towards nobels / importand personages

This topic will be broken into numberous subtopics due to some complexities. The first I think should be the types of punishments available to choose from for any crime or repeat offences, later we will discuss assigning the apporopriate punishment to a given crime.

I pose to you the following questions:

1. Which method(s) of Executions should be employed (select all you approve of)?
….. EX a. Public Execution (full penalties)
….. EX b. Public Execution (ooc rez)
….. EX c. Private Execution (full penalties)
….. EX d. Private Execution (ooc rez)
….. EX e. Executions only with Player consent
….. EX f. No Executions

2. Which method(s) of Incarceration should be employed (select all you approve of)?
….. JA a. Private Jailing (no PC visitation)
….. JA b. Semi-Private Jailing (PCs can come to the cell)
….. JA c. Public Jailing (Cell is in common public area)
….. JA d. No Jailing

3. What property should be available for forfeiture (select all you approve of)?
….. FO a. Forfieture of Home (if applicable)
….. FO b. Forfieture of all held possesions
….. FO c. Forfieture of some possesions
….. FO d. Forfieture of bank account (if applicable)
….. FO e. Forfeiture of all held gold
….. FO f. Forfeiture of some gold

4. What other punishments sound acceptable (select all you approve of)?
….. OT a. Slavery (only with player consent)
….. OT b. Loss of XP
….. OT c. Community service (perscribed by Justice or Knight, only with player consent)
….. OT d. Public Apology
….. OT e. Public posting of convicted criminals & crimes(forums)

5. Others that I dindt mention here?

--- My personal take ---
I feel the following punishemnts should be allowed (keeping in mind that many may be for repeat offenders ONLY):
EX b
JA b,c
FO b,e,f
OT a, c, d, e

[Shwabba]

Here's my four cents (my stock finally split!).
1. a,b,c,d
2. a,b,c
3. b,c,e,f
4. a,c,d,e

I voted this way with the idea of harsher penalties for more serious crimes and/or repeat offenders. I.e. public jailing for the first/minor offence, semi-private for second/average offence, private (maximum security) for career criminals/mass murderers etc...
Also, I feel that Homes are more of an ooc reward that Makz gives out for those exceptional players that have been around a loooong time. If everyone had a house, it could be more of an RP penalty, but as is, it seems more ooc.
As for xp, once again, that's an ooc penalty and I'm only for xp being lost due to respawning from execution, not being taken as a punishment in and of itself.
And last but not least, bank accounts should be off limits as a punishment. My rationale behind this is the nature of banks (or "holders" as they were called) back then. They worked a lot like fencers. Each client's business was kept strictly confidential, because if they gave up the goods everytime the local magistrate came around, no one would ever trust them with their stuff again. It's much easier (and better for business) for them to say "Who? Never heard of him," or "Yes, he did business here, but he took everything out yesterday," etc...

Just my one cent (stupid stock market crash),
Your Fiscally-Minded Neighborhood Shwabbaman

[Silentus]

I agree with all of the Shwabbaman's comments except the bank one - I chose against that only because of the DM interaction required. I added a bunch of options here that I do not agree with 'cause it is importatnt that everyone gets their opinion out on this.

[Phoenix]

1. A and C
If your going to execute someone (assuming serious repeat offender or whatever) why raise them? This can also be the path to losing some xp and gold. Though I think fines are a seperate subject. But execute then raise? Either execute, or choose another penalty (fine/jail/whatever).

2. B and C
Private jailing, no PCs means no chance for a breakout.

3. C and F *added C*
I have said it before, 'real' punishment might include removing the hands of theifs and mages. If we could script that we wouldn't, why? Because it's not fun. Any punishment has to be fun, otherwise you risk upsetting the players behind the character. Personally I could lose items and I wouldn't sweat it that much, I could craft them again.

4. A, C, D, E
No XP loss, that's OOC punishment which is up to the DMs to determine. Crimes commited IC should have IC punishment. Breaking server rules should have OOC punishment. This line should not be crossed.

5. Uhh am I missing the obvious here? Where is Jail time?!?

Lesson learned: don't play the stock market. You enter with $0.02, they tell you you have $0.04, but in reality you leave with $0.01.

[Silentus]

Jail time will be discussed with the next subtopic of punishment - assigning appropriate punishments to crimes. Right now I just want to discuss what punishment options we are willing to choose from. It should keep the choas down in the next step.

(BTW, you say you are against XP penalties for crimes, but are for full penalty executions. That was the reason that I am for an ooc rez, I dont like the idea of any XP reduction for punishment. If anything, you should gain XP as your character might just learn something from the process

[Phoenix]

OK, jail time probably does deserve it's own topic, good call there. It just wasn't in the list.

I also said I'm only for executation in extream cases, and if people can't deal with the XP penalty for respawning they don't need to play. So XP penalty for standard punishment, no. If executation is warranted then there is a little tap on the XP there.

If there is an XP reward that should be given by DMs for good RPing, heck that could be for a simple crime if played well. In the case of a well played executation I think a net gain of XP could be justified for the executed...

[JoScMa]

EX: a, b, c, d

Both types of penalties should be in effect. The xp penalty would only be applied to those VERY difficult troublemakers and need a bit stiffer penalty. Something that would be used rarely.

JA: a, b, c

All types should be available to cover all scenarios. Private jailing should be used for situations requiring the best security. Like if John Doe got thrown into a public jail and someone tried to break him out and fail, it would be wise to then move John Doe to a private cell to help prevent another occurance. Also good for offenders who can't seem to stay out of trouble.

FO: e, f

OT: a, c, d, e

All of those are sound punishments except for the xp penalty.

[Zhoreb]

1) a, b, c, d, e
All execution methods are fine with me. Different methods are used for different situations. And even no matter how serious the crime, if it is a first offense, I think the full penalty should not be given out. Repeat offenders, a different matter. I also included option e. Simply because Makz wants Fredian to be open to all kinds of players. But most of the time people who would choose e are either troublemakers or Pkillers, who should be dealt with on DM level. But still, an option out for the unknowing, ignorant and new players is a good thing.

2) a, b, c
Again it depends on the seriousness of a crime. Isolation is only for the most serious repeat offenders I think. Thieves for example should be displayed in public, think Pillory. All will know to be wary of them when they are out in the open again.

3) c, e, f
This depends on the level of corruption and general alignment of the law enforcers. But even the most noble lawful good law enforcer may request some gold to cover expenses and claim redress. But don't make it to harsh, let the corrupt guard have a item or 2, some gold.

4) a, c, d, e
Option a only if the government is evil, or maybe even neutral. If a is not applicable then use c.
Don't give XP loss as punishment. Why grief a player who is RPing with a XP loss for doing crime? If the RP involved is excellent, a XP reward should be given.
In the case of the ultimate penalty, execution without raise, the respawn will take away some XP. That should be enough. XP loss as a punishment should only be given for ooc unapropriate or abusive behaviour.

That is my 2 cents (didn't go to the stock market).

[Preedy1978]

Woah...no kidding Silentus....seriously involved here!

Ok...my tuppence worth:

1)- Not sure on any of this....If its all IC, why penalise the character with XP loss? Seems unfair. I would have to go with E on this one ....

2)- a b and c. For whatever the circumstance....Jocsma has it all covered there....i go totally with his view on this part.

3)- f. A fine for a crime is fair enough rp. But the rest seems to be an OOC type of punishment.

4)- a,c,d,e. Im against XP loss in any circumstance unless its OOC, in which case that for the DM's to decide.


I know you are just throwing out views on a subject here Silentus, but an XP loss for a crime in IC is wrong....i fell that if they have RP'd the situation well, they should be REWARDED XP.

[Spathic]

(thought i answered this... but apprently it didn't post)

1. A C
2. A B C
3. C E F
4. C D E

[Silentus]

I dont want to go into a long subdiscussion on this, but I am a little confused by people who feel that loss of some gold or some items is an OOC punishment. Most minor crimes in the US and other countries are FINEABLE expences, not jailable. In fuedal systems it was not unusal for nobles to capsize properties or belongings on a whim either. I'm not saying that you feel it should be used - Im just putting it out there that this DEFINATELY is an IC punishment. If you feel it is too discouraging to players, that is another story.

BTW, tomorrow I will be assembling all of these votes - keep up the good work!

[Phoenix]

I think most people's positions about XP and Gold have nothing to do with reality. It has to do with fun, see about comments about 'real' punishment and hands. Do you really think a thief would keep his both hands and all their fingers after being caught even once in a feudal society? Honestly I see a feudal thief being punished something like this. 1st, loose a few fingers, go to jail for a while. 2nd, loose your hand(s), if you die from that oh well (infection anyone?), if not LOTS more jail time. If you are still alive and get caught a 3rd time, death. And that might be lienent...

As far as XP penalty for respawning, that should have already been accounted for in their minds. IE if the crime went bad, and they were killed, do they really expect a raise? I wouldn't, so I already risk that part just by being a criminal/doing bad things.

[Spathic]

i think loss of equiptment is fine., as long as it is reasonable... Some people have uniques out there (Caomhin's "Nanna's Protector" or Karls armour for example) or some hard to get items (katana of dragons, stormbrand ) or even some items that seem to be very rare drops (Caomhin has a rod of ghostly visage that i have never seen anywhere else... i may have overlooked a shop who knows)... obviously these items should not be taken, as it is a severe punishment.... but losing your +3 tower shield is no big deal... just walk around and you'll get one soon enough...

Also i don't think this whole criminal justice thing is going to be used by lowlevels... most people seem to fly under the radar uintil they get into the middle levels (12ish) so loss of mundane possesions isn't all that big a deal....

just my 2 cents

[Phoenix]

Granted, lower levels fly under the radar a little better, of course they are also scared and try less... That of course means the people who could lose items (people not flying under the radar) would be the same people getting hard to get items.

The ghostly visage item is a findable item, but only at certian levels (lower), so 'you' may not be able to find it, but others can.

*gathers everyone's 2 cents and gets it changed for a dollar*
Wow, that's much better than playing the stock market. ;D

[Shwabba]

Phoenix said:

*gathers everyone's 2 cents and gets it changed for a dollar*
Wow, that's much better than playing the stock market. ;D

ROFL!! You ever need a job, you can be my accountant anytime! ;D

Just a little side note about the "reality" of punishments. First off, a thief in the middle ages didn't lose fingers or hands (that's Arabic societies). Instead they were either imprisoned or killed. And by imprisoned I don't mean 30 days and time served. More like 30 years and if you're still alive after that you're free to go. Also, losing gold and gear is an IC punishment. Period. YOU didn't work hard to get all that stuff, your CHARACTER did. All YOU did was sit at a computer stuffing your face with cheetos for a few hours. Well, that's all *I* did, anyway Therefore, anything your CHARACTER loses, YOU and a bag of cheetos can get back in just a few more hours, yes even uniques, etc.

Keepin' It Real,
Your Really Real For Real Shwabbaman