Jurisdiction pt 2 - Simplification (topic closed)

[Silentus]

I had this topic closed and locked, but unlocked it at Pheonix's request. This will be closed as of tomorrow so I can wrap this all up by COB tomorrow. Please put in your opinions now. If you wish to change your vote, just post a new one here and I will modify it - I keep a spreadsheet with your current vote, so it is easy for me to change it without rereading the history.

[Phoenix]

Thanks Silentus,

I thought a LOT about this and I think we are missing something here.

In the first poll we were given choices of places where chases could occur. When we has this level of choise we decided that some areas are not kosher to have chases in. Now when the question is rephrased we agree everywhere. I think the problem is the wording of the questions.

The problem we have now is our choices. We have discussed, and agreed (the original poll) that some places were out of the reach of the law (otherwise 'everywhere' would have passed in the first place). Now we are faced with the decision of everywhere (too broad) or just the reported areas (too narrow). There has to be something in the middle.

I voted at first for everywhere, just to make it simple, but after thinking about it, that's hardly simple. Xilo isn't happy with his vote either. Maybe if we flipped the area discussion around a bit, and asked areas where law didn't extend. That would remove the scenario of murdering someone in West Styne, only to move one area away and sticking their tongues out at the guard, but would allow for someone to run to a safe place (of course only until they leave, they are still criminals). Criminals need a safe haven, or they simply won't visit areas where crimes can be reported (IE not fun enough to bother with, move on to something else). This is a big problem I see. As players we WANT evil actions in town right (something to RP around)? If we implement a system where you commit a crime and you go to jail everytime who will commit crimes? Every crime was commited with the intent that you could get away with it. If all it takes is someone blaming you for a crime (it's all it takes, BELIEVE me, I have gotten several people arrested this way) who would be a criminal?

When we are talking about jurisdiction I think the whole idea is to have some, what we are voting for now is none. That doesn't sound fun, I would like to be able to flee. Commit a crime and prepare to be chased until caught is what I see now.

Now, what about the tool, are we discussing where that can be used when we say where people can be captured at? Does that mean the knights will be able to use that tool on ANYONE (accused of a crime), ANYWHERE? That doesn't sound appealing. Where is a criminals chance for escape? Is it OK for a knight to chases someone from one end of the world only to catch them on the other by walking up and hitting them with this tool?

edit: OK I updated my votes and made a decision on Whillem, thanks Makz. for the backround info.

[Makzimia]

Let me make this real simple for you all. Any person given a level 1 access on the lasso will be able to send a PC to either min or max security based on it being a IC crime (min) or OOC crime (max). That applies to ANYWHERE within RP constraints, these are trusted players. That part is NONE negotiable. And a database entry goes in for person with lasso access, so even if one is stolen, it can't be used

Makz.

[Silentus]

To Expound on Makz statement:

1. OOC issues are exactly that and will be dealt with by DMs. This bears no weight in this discussion as we are [only[/u] talking about IC RP based CJ here. If Makz wants to give others the Lasso to deal with those OOC issues too - more power to him! I just want to clarify that OOC issues have nothing to do with the proposed CJ system.

2. The lasso should not (and I assume will not) be restricted to areas. However what we are dicussing here is the codes the knights should follow for useing them IC for RP reasons.

3. For the clarification of this discussion the use of the lasso and other jailing tools holds no real relevance at all. The tools just make it easier to handle the RP and make it nicer visually. It is assumed that RPers want to RP and will go along with these rules (or knowingly fight against them IC) even if no tools are availble.

[Phoenix]

Well I assume whoever gets these items will be responsible or banned fast given the potential for abuse. As much as I though about that too I didn't think it would be a problem. I'm sure any player you conisder for this would surely have invested more time than in their character than is worth wasting by abusing this tool.

I would like to clarify that, because it's not the reason I posted what I did, I want to establish RP constraints that would prevent them from using them server-wide. I just don't think a do-gooder would be welcome everywhere, so I don't think it makes sense for them to capture people everywhere. There should be places where a knight in shining armor isn't welcome, so no knight would go there to apprehend someone. This is one reasons I feel we need 'safe havens'. The other is the 'fun factor' which has less to do with RP and more to do with limiting the system so it's not too oppressive to villians.

edit: It's also not like this discussion is set in stone. It's our system, if we need to tweak it after it's been in place for a week or so we can. So if we do find it to be too oppressive, or if Whillem really shouldn't be in the reportable areas, we can always adjust.

[Makzimia]

All the lasso does is send a PC to jail one is IC other is OOC, one can be potentially escaped, other cannot. That is once all is 100% completed. I again stress... those with this device will be trusted players, and we can remove them from the database as easily as put them in charge of it. ALL areas of the server other than in a house of the perp,or known badlands... are fair game... in other words if invited into a home and the person apprehending sees the criminal they would attempt arrest. A knight with some friends would still venture into badlands IMO anyway . And again... IC RP a knight/guard would I hope use good judgement in situations based on current play, ie disguised perp etc..

Makz.

[Silentus]

I REALLY think that simplicity should rule the day on this issue. I also believe that Knights would go into hostile areas, if it is too hostile and they choose not to, it is the same as police turning away from bad neighborhoods. This issue to me is to complex for the initial system BUT I will put it to a short vote. Please vote soon. as soon as I see 7 or more votes, I am closing this poll - Im getting antsey and want to finish this beast.

PLEASE REVOTE
I am scraping all previous answers and starting a fresh poll - this is too messed up now.

INFO AGREED UPON (from Jurisdiction pt 1):
A. Visual witnesses of a crime can report that crime to a knight if the crime occured in any populated Styne region or Castille (but not in Whillem and inside areas that are not in Styne & Castille)

B. Knights can apprehend suspects of a reported crime in any populated Styne region, Castille City, Whillem as well as any inside area (except private homes without permission).

I pose to you the following questions:
1. If a crime occurs in Whillem and a visual witness reports it to a knight, should the knight respond?
...a. Yes
...b. No
Reason for this simpification question: In the original complicated version Whillem was voted as non-reportable, but ok to apprehend. As Whillem got close to approval (54% of the vote instead of the 66% concensus needed) and it was causing a problem, I reposed the issue.

2. If a crime is reported, Knights can apprehend suspects in the following areas :
...a. Everywhere except Soveriegn nations territories (like Ranestadt)
...b. Just those that can be reported in (as in part A above)?
...c. Per initial poll - Reportable areas, Whillem and all interior areas
...d. Everywhere except N. Desert & Soverign nations territories (and again private residences without permission by necessity)
Reason for this simpification question: The original poll ended in an overly complicated scenario in that crimes cold not be reported from all inside areas and from Whillem, but suspects could be apprehend in those same areas. As everywhere got close to approval (54% of the vote instead of the 66% concensus needed) and it was causing a problem, I reposed the issue.

NOTE: Ranestadt has been mandated by Makz to be off limits for law enforcemnt of any sort as it is a soveriegn nation. I expect that the same may be said of the Alverian Mountian regions which are Drow controlled territories, but Makz will need to clarify that for us.

--- My personal opinion ---
1 a
2 a

[taylor]

IMO

1)a
2)a


thats my 33 pence

[Phoenix]

1. A
2. D, since the begining I wanted a place to go to that was safe from the law. At first it looked like just reportable areas were in the list to capture, now it's expanded. If the desert is the location we want the evil types to go (discussed from another thread), then it's the logical safe haven to me. Not everyone has a house you know...

[Omega Darkstar]

1. A

2. D, I agree with Phoenix....the desert was a spot chosen for the evil to coexist a little more smoothly. Every side needs a base of operations.

[kline]

1.No Simple though if the Knight goes to take care of this problem outside of Styne or Castille then they are acting as there paladin selfs not as the law of Styne or Castille because they are outside there place of enforcment. They also have to beware that the owner of these seperate peaces of land might not like the Knights of Styne just riding into there city or town or whatever, and enforcing there laws.
2.B Stay there and protect your town. The town is the most important. And all of Castille and Styne. Everywhere else who cares as long as your town and lands are safe. You have done what you are suppose to do as a Knight of the Land. As a paladin or whatever do whatever you feel the Paladin should do but again remember once you pass the borders you are no longer acting as the Law you have now stepped on to some one elses land.

[Spathic]

1. yes
2. d (i'd also add the sublevel of Ranestadt as well though no one ever goes there i guess)

Kline, most of this island should be considered part of the king's realm... don't protect the farms? Don't protect whillhem? it's absurd... further just because they are allowed to go there doesn't mean they will... who is going to hunt for you in clevian mountains or alveria or other hard to reach outlying areas... it's a big world and for the most part it will remain just as lawless as you want it to be...

[kline]

Hey I vote and said the reason why i voted that is all.

[addicted2rpg]

speaking for the PC in me:

1.) a
2.) b


Ranestadt may in the future become increasingly hostile to outsiders if they have a large influx of smelly, scraggly, ugly criminals invading their city seeking asylum However, their problems with the svirfneblin outside seem to have them otherwise occupied for now....

[JoScMa]

1. a

Since the Briars have made an agreement with Wend that includes guards, I think yes is an appropriate answer.

2. d

P.S. Kline, don't assume all knights are paladins. Look at Karl, he's not a paladin by any means.