Law and Disorder?

[Phoenix]

Silentus, this has to do with the CJ system, you may want to move it into that forum (couldn't create the thread in the sub forum).

OK, I have seen a few postings of crimes and punishment that I don't agree with. We went through a detailed process of polls for this entire system and it seems like the knights are inventing laws. Examples:

"...was today jailed for causing a distubance in West Styne and refusing to obey a Knights command (Sir Aviar and Sir Yarrik) to stand down."

"sevred 5 minutes for causing a disturbance..."

"Served 10 minutes for his disrespectful attitude, and helping to create mass disorder in West Styne."

"...who despite several warnings, decided to shout her disrespectful comments about the Knights around, and then when was confronted about her actions, decided to shout her comments directly at me. Despite another, more abrupt warning, which she ignored, I was forced to jail her for 10 minutes, backing up my previous warning to her. "

"...was sentenced to 10 minutes in jail for attempting to free Chickaroo whilst his execution was being carried out. "

"was found guilty for reckless endangerment of Akeer by casting some form of fireball spell that lingered in a given area in West Styne."

"Ventrick refused to pay the 100k fine and was sentenced to an additional 30 minutes of incarceration time"

While I plainly see the need for some changes, why are the knights jailing people for things we didn't vote on? Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of voting and discourage involvement in future voting? Just a reminder, below are the laws we did vote for. Since the use of the lasso is granted to these people I would hope they can stick to the guidelines we agreed to.

4. CRIMES & PUNISHMENT
...When punishing guilty parties, Knights should follow these sentacing guidelines when possible

...A. Impeding Justice (running from the law or not complying with questioning)
.........Forfeiture of 1000 gold
...B. Theft...............1st Offence
.........Forfeiture of 5000 gold
.........Return of stolen item (or replacement value if no longer in possesion of item)
.........Public posting of convicted criminals & crimes (on forums)
...C. Theft...............Subsequent Offences
.........Forfeiture of all held gold
.........Public Jailing (10 Minutes Real Time)
.........Public posting of convicted criminals & crimes (on forums)
...D. Murder.............1st Offence
.........Forfeiture of 100000 gold
.........Semi-Private Jailing (20 Minutes Real Time)
.........Public posting of convicted criminals & crimes (on forums)
...E. Murder.............Subsequent Offences
.........Forfeiture of all held gold
.........Semi-Private Jailing (30 Minutes Real Time)
.........Public posting of convicted criminals & crimes (on forums)
...F. Hardened Criminals.......after serving 120 minutes prison time again for every 60 min (180, 240, 300...)
.........Same punishments as standard 2nd offence crime plus...
.........Public Execution (full penalties - no Resurrections or Raises)
............(Victim or victims family may offer slavery in lieu of exectution)

[AvengersWraith]

The CJ system in not totally autonomous and in full play yet, we are still under martial law and it is actually up to the King to decide how to instruct the knights to act.

Makz said him and Nat are still working on implementing the CJ system to his standards, he did not specify if it was scripting, King Wend better monitoring of knights behaviour or anything in particular.

Makz is still working on Fredian, Fredian is still a great place to play, and it is easy to avoid the knights if you are having problems with them.

[Phoenix]

Actually Martial Law ended with the CJ system per Makz. in one of the threads, don't remember which one, but it's out there. But it doesn't matter, just after I posted this Silentus posted the Ammendment 1 post (knights can jail for insubordinate behavior after warnings). I still take issue with the fact that people were jailed for things that weren't law at the time. When I posted this the only crimes were theft, murder, and evading arrest.

[AvengersWraith]

I plan to propose a way for "convictions" to be expunged from the record, you cannot get your time back, but, if approved and possible, you can get the time removed from your record thereby reducing the minutes you towards an execution.

[Phoenix]

I would like to get an answer from the knights, or anyone on these questions? Anyone out there? I'm disappointed that we went through such a process and it seems no one really cares about it except the fact that you can jail people now with the lasso. The whole point of this system wasn't the lasso, it was when, where and how to use it. Can you give me a reason to vote on anything else if you don't keep to the results of the votes?

[Preedy1978]

Ok....I havent posted here because makz has already had this covered in another thread. Simply put now, the knights can send people who are causing a disturbance (You all know what i mean, lets not beat around the bush here) straight to jail, if they ignore his warnings. (within reason of course).

The lassos have a time logg on them as well, FYI, so we know how long people have already served, and if they are trouble-makers or not.

This doesnt mean Martial law...it just means you have to behave whilst in a knights juristiction. I dont see what the fuss is all about. I'm sure if you ever played a char. who was on the right side of the law phoenix (although, you havent even been arrested yet for anything i might add), or even was a knight yourself, you might see first hand the amount of utter chaos we have to deal with. Makz has seen fit to allow us the power to deal with minor crimes as we see fit. (within reaon, obviously) Its up to the knights to see that we are fair about it.

I know for a fact that i am not a power hungry gamer, and i would just like for people to enjoy their time whilst on the server. So i am NOT going to jail people for merely killing a chicken. (although a few stiff words would be spoken for killing the farmers lifestock).

You see were I am going here? I am trying to be reasonable playing a knight in RP, and i will continue to do so as best as i can. I havent had any OOC complaints about the way i conduct my RP with Karl yet, and i hope i never deserve any either. I can assure you i try my best to be as reasonable as possible.

[Phoenix]

I totally understand your point of view, I do. But in the eyes of the rest of the players, who did participate in all these polls, do you think these actions were justified at the time? (Makz. hadn't posted about the knight being able to arrest based on warnings yet). Do you think that going against what we all agreed to was fair? I see this as (minor) abuse to that lasso, a tool we all voted it for specific use. When used outside those guidelines it causes resentment, regardless of Makz's decision afterwards.

If the CJ system ends, it will be because of resentment for the use of that lasso, that I'm sure of. Otherwise it will be here to stay (something I really want, just look at how involved I was in the process). I'm of the belief that you can't pregnant dog if you were not involved (by choise). I was involved so I'm raising my complaints. I just posted another about use of the lasso in PvP, something I don't believe was discussed, but I feel needs to be...

Thanks for at least replying and letting us know your point. Also, don't think because you have not heard compaints there are none. This is something I want to flesh out, if I see room for abuse or complaints others could/would. They just might not say anything. I have very little in the way of OOC complaints to anyone that I
RP with, on any of this. As you said, your trying to use the system; and thats what I see, everyone trying to use the system. Just becuase it's a long post doesn't mean anyone is pissed either.

Oh and what the hell do you mean about seeing the utter chaos... How much of that is BECAUSE of me and my super friends?

[Silentus]

FYI, I have stated before that I think there should be some more restraint with reguards to some of htis, but the simple fact is that Makz has made his opinion known. I am not wasting my time on anything else with it right now.

Simply put - it may be a good idea to continue posting what you believe to be unjust knightly behavior so that the players can consider it, but that is as far as it can go right now - per Makz.

[Preedy1978]

Well Phoenix, your points are well known, but from a standpoint of someone that is a knight, Makz's ruling was a god-send! Sometimes being a knight can be VERY frustrating when people (Im not saying most people, but some players do decide to really push the limits of IC behaviour) just decide that the knights are a target for an abuse session. Also, Im sure people would expect a knight to maintain order if a brawl (NOT murder or theft) took place in his juristiction, under his nose!

Unless people start LISTENING to a knight, then we have no chance to break this sort of thing up, except of using the lasso to jail people.

If everyone wants to RP this all correctly, then where is the respect for KNOWN law enforcers? All i see is people insulting the law enforcers, committing crimes IN FRONT of them, NO respect. IRL sure, sometimes you get people who disrespect the police, but if this was the case as much as in Fredian, im sure the jail cells would be full in everyones local police station as well!!

So...if we all want to RP this correctly (believe me, i want to) then i suggest that people show the proper respect to a knight. Im not telling people HOW to RP, because like a post ive posted elsewhere, im not for that, but perhaps people should think about what they are doing before causing trouble in the name of RP? (Im NOT against people committing a crime, all i am saying is would you or me IRL deliberatly attack someone with a weapon in front of a copper? I dont think so)

Please also note that when we had finished all of the origianl CJ discussions, it was said that if anything needed tweaking/adding to the system, then it would be done. Well, from a knight's point of view, enforcing the minor crimes was a must...the AMOUNT of sheer chaos that ensues in STyne on a daily basis is IMO quite astonishing....I dont have a problem with that...but maybe everyone would if the knights could only enforce HALF of the things that happened, the other half, like assaulting someone, or brawling that would be considered a crime in our society, the knights couldnt. Im sure other people would complain about the knights 'not doing their job'.


Some of the things you have quoted Phoenix are an excellent view of what a Knight PC has to put up with on a daily basis IC. OOCwise...it does get frustrating when someone OBVIOUSLY has the money to pay a fine, but refuses to do so...(Ventrick i can understand, because jail doesnt bother him unless their is an armed guard outside his cell lol) Is this 'proper' RP? I can understand 'some' people NOT respecting the knights.....but EVERYONE? NOBODY really cares if they are sent to jail or not, just take a look at the criminal postings for proof on that score.

So...the question is....do we want the knights to keep order in their juristiction? Or do we want them to be trodden all over and made a laughing stock? Because thats what will happen.

Oh...and one more thing....nearly EVERYTIME i use the lasso to send someone to jail for 'causing a disturbance' i get a POSITIVE reaction from the people around me, saying that i did the right thing etc... sure not all of these people had a say in making the CJ system, but the system is as much their's as anyone elses.

[Silentus]

I want to send out another thanks to Addicted for the 5 minute addition to the lasso too. this effectivly allows for mobs to be forcibly reduced, without pushing them to far on the execution timeline.

Being a knight has to be dificult. Im not sure about Phoenix, but as for me it is not that I feel the knights are dong a bad job, just frustration at seening some of the things we sought after run over - but not being able to hone them in certain ways. Thats life - its a game - Im gunna have fun and forget it OOC