Call for ideas

[addicted2rpg]

www.metafocus.net/~cs60/House_And_RCS.doc


The above is the specification is what I have written up for the upcoming House and RCS systems. Unfortunately, we have ran into some problems on how to deal with Castillian government.

If any brave thinker has good ideas on how we should do the Royal Court of Castille (player government), please read the above link (for background) and then post your ideas.

This is the largest scale project I have ever done, err, plan to do, on the Island Fredian to date.

We are having problems with the significance of rank and how rank is assigned. Any ideas, anyone?

[clark625]

Okay, I'll take the first stab at this one. I'll even try to keep in mind that that many ideas, while good, may be rejected by Makz's discresion.

Some initial thoughts: I love the idea of permanence being introduced to Fredian. Granted, a defeated House Leader can still walk about Fredian, but their power and influence is taken away. Love it. I also think it's appropriate to have land-owners make decisions. It's much more in-line with the feudal period. I would just strongly suggest that the King only allow the RCS be advisory mostly, as in the end his call is final (whatever is recommended).

Before I take on the rank issue--I would see large problems limiting a House size to between 3 and 10 members. I'm not part of the Holy Might, but my guess is they are well above 50 characters included. If the Houses are limited to such small sizes, you'll risk a team of five players (each with homes) each having five characters, part of five different Houses. Should one House fall, there are four (nearly equivalent) Houses remaining. I would think that if a House can be made to have up to 20 or even 30 characters, it would encourage players to put their characters into a House with prestige (and not play games to have the most influence). I'm not sure of this, though--but, I can see lots of chances for abuse.

Okay--House ranks. I would suggest a simple point system that is required to be completed regularly by all Heads of Houses--maybe before each RCS meeting. Each House will get ~1/3 the number of points as the number of Houses in existance. The Head will then give those points (to a maximum) to other, competing, Houses. This will act as a measurement of the perceived prestige a particular House has. For the most part, it should be done by the House Head OOC (because I might be at war with a House, but feel they are very prestigious). At any given time, each House would also know where it ranks in terms of power and prestige. Quorum (in terms of RCS operation) could be just a minimum number of points in attenance at the meeting (say 1/2 of all points).


Okay--those are my thoughts right now. I'll post new ideas or revisions as I think of them.

[MitzaVolchenko]

Alright, Nat, I finally got around to pulling your document...

First is there a means for the current House Head to abdicate in favor of another House Member without losing their right to be part of a House?
This would be needed because sometimes RL requires us to step back from FL, and I would not want to see someone penalized for something that is beyond their control.

Second, in order to implement this fairly, those on the waiting list for homes need to be able to be accomodated, something that is not currently plausible. We have a lot of long term (okay at least a few more), deserving,and responsible players that should be land owners by now. Additionally we have MIA due to RL homeowners, and finally does home ownership apply to all characters for that player? on their primary acct? on any acct they have? ie Mala owns my house, but she is all but out of play now and I have a second acct whose primary character took up residence. Who is eligible as a homeowner? I would say register one Character per Home and allow the player to choose which and change it over time.

***comic relief***
"DMs had claw marks on their backs"
How did I miss out on that fun? ;D
***end comic relief***

Are the guards that taxes pay for going to be scripted to do anything useful? Right now they just give me a headache over faction settings every time the warped want to hold a peaceful demonstration in Castille...

***here come's the comic again***
"There have not been any more rumors"
*sighs with relief that Mr. Hald never got to hear Mala's scathing commentary on him*
***comic ducks and runs off with Trashican throwing firebombs for cover***

Meetings of the Royal Court needs to require a quorum of the House Heads. I presume that the alliances will balance themselves out to prevent closed door meetings that exclude any given House. I do however think that there will be a need for DM presence, if only to keep us in the know.

Also, I suggest a delay or warning period on war declarations. While the RP of a war declaration in Court is a grand thing, it would be supremely unfair for the House Head to be murderable and banishable on the Court floor...put say a 12-24 hour delay on a war declaration becoming official as the messengers carry word of the war out to the House members and general populace. Added to that, a function at the end of a war that allows it to taper off over that same 12-24 hour period would be nice as word of peace is spread (think Battle of New Orleans...war was over, but wow, what a victory).

A few thoughts on the Knights as well...I don't want to see them gone. They serve the King, not the Council. I would exclude them from the House System, as they are a brotherhood apart. Let them continue to uphold the King's Law and mete out justice on behalf of the non-House folks and the non-House war actions. Pay them and equip them out of the Royal Treasury, but leave them as they are...the Lawful and not so Lawful champions of the King's Law.

[addicted2rpg]

MitzaVolchenko said:

First is there a means for the current House Head to abdicate in favor of another House Member without losing their right to be part of a House?

This one is going to be touchy. The RL arguments are powerful. People need to take a break sometime. I think the creation of the Captain and the Sergeant ranks are there for this very purpose. Those people will have the ability to perform a lot of the duties in the House Head's absence.

Second, in order to implement this fairly, those on the waiting list for homes need to be able to be accomodated,

Well, sometimes life isn't fair But they will get out sooner or later, yes? To clark: I am kind of worried about the way you talk about land owners. Remember, membership in a House is NOT limited to being a land owner, only be the HEAD of the house is limited to being a land owner. Was that clear in the specs?

finally does home ownership apply to all characters for that player? on their primary acct? on any acct they have? ie

I think you missed the part about Makzimia choosing which PCs can be House Heads. The land requirement is policy, not code.

I am skeptical of tracking the CD-key of the person, so playing acrossed gamespy accounts could be a problem for you, but only in convincing us you are who you say you are. I'm not going to have code check for a home other than an advisory role to DMs that they might be giving a House out to someone with no home

Mala owns my house, but she is all but out of play now and I have a second acct whose primary character took up residence. Who is eligible as a homeowner?

I don't think it would look very good for a DM to be in the House system in the same way a player is.
But I see that you are just presenting the scenario of character A and character B both own same home. I didn't restrict it that way. Remember the part where it says "level up to 40" in the House Disbandment chapter? Well, I am thinking 30 now, but the point is that the same person / piece of land can make as many Houses as we are willing to approve with as many characters as the server vault will hold

I would say register one Character per Home and allow the player to choose which and change it over time.

That dangerously implies that the Land falls when the House Head dies rather than the just the House itself. We want players to have an opportunity of redemption, so no.

Are the guards that taxes pay for going to be scripted to do anything useful?

Consider speical projects spending.

Meetings of the Royal Court needs to require a quorum of the House Heads. I presume that the alliances will balance themselves out to prevent closed door meetings that exclude any given House. I do however think that there will be a need for DM presence, if only to keep us in the know.

Nothing is going to prevent closed door meetings. It makes perfect sense for two Houses to come to an agreement and run around saying the consensus of ALL the Houses (whether they gave it or not) is blah blah blah, and oh yeah, King Wend said so too. Disinformation has old war roots.

What kind of DM presence do you suggest?
I personally do not even care what the Houses do as long as they do not violate any of the core rules: griefing, etc..

It is, after all, a game.

Also, I suggest a delay or warning period on war declarations. While the RP of a war declaration in Court is a grand thing, it would be supremely unfair for the House Head to be murderable and banishable on the Court floor...put say a 12-24 hour delay on a war declaration becoming official as the messengers carry word of the war out to the House members and general populace.

Ok, we got something here. The world has not seen the first or last time someone has been assassinated in governing chambers, but from a gamedesign point of view I think if someone walks up and rolls a 20 getting a devastating critical and wipes out the other House in stroke of Phoenix-style luck (that guy has 9 lives!!!) then the person on the floor is going to be saying 'this is lame'

Remember though, they can still be raised or resurrected before their corpse rots.

I like 120 seconds.

Any comments from anyone on what this value should be, or arguments against having a war delay?

Added to that, a function at the end of a war that allows it to taper off over that same 12-24 hour period would be nice as word of peace is spread (think Battle of New Orleans...war was over, but wow, what a victory).

Excess features
But if you insist, we can remove party chat and tells to make sure 'the word' carries more realistically....

A few thoughts on the Knights as well...I don't want to see them gone. They serve the King, not the Council.

The knights will not be gone.
And yes, they serve the King and not the Council.

I would exclude them from the House System, as they are a brotherhood apart.

This has already been decided, I'll assume your replying to Fizzbang's questions about Knights in the wrong thread

non-House war actions. Pay them and equip them out of the Royal Treasury,

Hmm, an interesting idea. It doesn't address anything on the Nature of Appointment or the Nature of Meeting.
We can do it when we actually have it coded. I am staving off until we can resolve the two crucial issues.

[MitzaVolchenko]

**Not trying to be argumentative, just thinking like a player**

Hmmm...try 5 minutes instead of 120 seconds. I would think that the Court sessions would be closed door from the remainder of the House. So how does my faithful lieutenant get to me to raise me?

Which brings up another point, we currently do not allow corpse guarding to prevent help from assisting a fallen foe, are we going to maintain that or will it become legal to stand over a House Head to prevent aid from reaching them?

I am worried that the permanent removal from the House system will cost us some fairly long running characters that make the world a bit of what it is. Sure they can build a new level 40 to be a House Head, but then they are no longer playing their old character...think of Fredian without some of these people...I would rather propose that they cannot be House Leaders again, but I would not remove them from the system entirely.

Also, what keeps a House from having a patsy as a leader...a character that never logs in? Or becoming invulnerable when the leader goes AWOL for RL?

Sorry, I am not awake yet...I know there were more thoughts on this in my brain somewhere...I'll get back to this when I am really awake...

Oh and DM presence...as one of the folks most constantly on DM side these days, knowing what is up in player politics, etc lets us head off a lot of OOC griefing with a casual warning word here and there. I know that in theory everyone can and will follow the rules, but players are human and many or them are YOUNG and tempermental humans.

Partial solution to death in the Court chamber would be no PvP for it and selected forum in the Roman sense areas for political discussion and debate without violence.

[Makzimia]

Mitz,

The idea of House removal on head death is based on the idea that a call to war should REALLY be given thought before going ahead with it. Perhaps the option to not accept war? that is the only out I would give personally.

No patsy will be made head, why? because you or I, or another DM will chose the head, being a house owner will *NOT* automatically make a player eligible to lead a house.

And yes, I agree, 120 seconds is too short even with our portalling system, 5 mins is more realistic.

Keep em coming.

Makz.

[kline]

Ok here we go.. I know some people are not going to like me for this but you asked for it.. ;D
My thoughts on the system. I like the idea. I like how when if someone is at war with you they turn hostile towards you, very helpful.
With guilds I believe that you should have land that you own. This will be a large fenced in area on a map in the area there will be a flag hidden there somewhere. You can claim a guild by taking this flag. You must also be in charge of a guild in order to take the flag, or a ranking officer. Once the flag is taken it is now your land and your tarrain. If noone owns the land then it is rightfully yours. If someone does own the land that guild house is notifyed and become hostile to the other team. Inside this fenced in area will be something valubale like a diamond deposit, or Myrk, or mytherail....
There will be only one other deposite like that in the lands that will be avalable to everyone that finds it. This will start all kinds of role play and alliances.[think of it the person that has a hold on a guild land that has Myrk or diamonds or such will be very powerful. The fenced in land will have a gate that can be gottin into by someone with a real high picklocks or repeatly bashing away at the door with a high str charater or something. This kind of ands a whole new twist to your system.
Guild heads dieing... Dont like that idea at allllllllllll!!!!!!! That is really no good. Ok how about this one if the guild head falls and dies and is not raised in a certain time limit. Then he falls from grace and his guild throws him from being guild head. Now the old guild head can still be in the same guild or can join in someone elses. But who-ever is second in charge takes over. The old guild head can still take back the guild and become the ruler of it again, after a lets say 3 week period in real life. The reasons for this are far to many to name really but I have though long and hard on this.
Anouther thing as a DM or a charater I do not show people that have not been here fo awhile or the people that are lower levels that they mean nothing and are not worth my time. I show them the same if not more cortesy they the ones that have been here forever. If you want to own a guild and you have others that want to join in a guild here to then you should be able to do that. What we are saying with this system is that ok sorry you have only been here 2 weeks and are a great role player and have been logged on for 12 hours a day but you mean nothing to us, and can not start your own guild, BS. They should have the same things and be able to enjoy the server as much as anyone else.
Anouther thing lets say this Getty owns a house and he runns it and I am walking through the woods one day and get popped, boom, I am dead. Ok now the guild I have had for 2 months lets say now is dead. Ok so what do I do. Well what I do if everyone seems to be playing this guild system game is I trash Getty and I make a new charater, to make anouther guild, boom he dies as soon as I work to get him to 40th. Ok well there goes anouther one I start again. When does this cycle stop. You have to be crazy to think some of these people are not going to kill Hanah or Anomally the first day the guild gets formed and there goes there charaters. [[[[food for thought]]] I will write more after yall think on this one.

[Makzimia]

There will be NO claimable areas with flags etc. Forget that before it even festers in ANYONE's head. The outline of the system stands. Treasury fund of a house will go to a rival however in the event of the fall of a opponent, once RCS is in. All that is being asked of anyone is what input they want on actual council. Addicted and I do not want a player to be able to decide any of the details of who or when a house is run. And some of the response to this shows why.

This is exactly why I have not allowed any of the overall populace until now to do anything in this way, structure for it is VERY difficult, without stepping on someones toes

War as I have forsaid will be something long thought out and with dire consequences *IF* the head is taken out and does respawn, is not rez'd/raised. It is is similar to a PvP fight, in the rules, if you respawn it is the end of the conflict. In the absence of a real death of a PC and that everyone therefor has cheap death, this is a viable alternative to it, without removing the players PC completely.

What is being misunderstood here is the appointment of a House head and members. It does in NO means exclude newer players from being involved. They simply will not get to head a house, they could however say be a captain, seargent, a member, or even a mecenary spy for a house with RP connections. The limit is purely in the execution by individuals with the code designed to merely give order and reason to players to play within those guidelines.

I am supposed to be relaxing the rest of this weekend, but I wished to defuse or explain a little more, before any misconceptions became a flame war.

Makz.

[kline]

I am sorry then for my gripes, really I had not even started yet. But I will give no more input of my own into the system as it is not needed or wanted. The system looks great but it will not work, sorry it just will not. It will fall on its self after a week I bet. And if the PC gets nothing out of being in a guild besides saying they are in one then keep the system you have now it is fine. I will not be a part of this system and will not act in anyway to help it or harm it. I know and this is just not me ranting and raving but if you dont believe the things I have written in my last thread then I will stop there. The system will not work it looks good on papaer but you have not thought of how PCs act and how things go down on a normal bassis. Sorry I dont post much unless I feel strongly on a subject and this one I do feel strongly on. I believe and this is allot more then just a belief, you guys have worked your butts off for nothing. If you will not listen to my post and even look at my ideas then you will not look at anyones and that will be your downfall. Good luck on your system. When you guys want some help let us PCs and DMs [[that realy dont know what they are talking about, please]]help you out. I didnt just come up with this stuff of the top of my head lets see this is an idea that I have been going over with lets count them 6 long standing players here in your world and 3 DMs. Makes you think huh.
You guys work so hard for me to tell you this. I know just pisses yall off but someone needs to say something so I will let it be me. I believe you need to lock this thread until you really want some imput on the subject. When you do then ask the questions you need answered. We are all here just to help you guys out.

[Makzimia]

Noted, thanks, and locked. Back to the drawing board for now.