Evil RP

[Silentus]

Preedy1978 said:

murdering someone is NOT a lawful act, no matter what the provocation was. (unless it was self defence).

I generally agree with your point, but just wanted to point out that ther quoted statement is completely untrue. Law vs Chaos is not about following laws, it is better defined as ... predictability. It is a matter of if your character tends to follow some personal trends and to what degree. Killing every paladin you know of (because you hate paladins) is a lawful evil action. Giving charitable donations to some characters down on their luck but not others at a whim is probably a chaotic good action. A character that does not like the idea of government and regularly deliberately breaks laws simply to deny the system is acting lawfully but for good or evil is determined based on the morality of the laws they are breaking.

Hope that helps clarify things

[Hanah]

Silentus always makes an insightful point, dontcha just hate that?;-)

Maybe my two cents on the law/chaos axis: I would agree on the issue of predictability being a major feature but I would add that social convention is a feature of predictability. Example, a lawful individual would frown upon folks sleeping in the streets (as we Fredians often grab a quick nap pretty much anywhere) as any 'normal' person would never do such a thing. Conversely, a chaotic may not be so keen to take a knight's word as his honour because, well, honour isn't all that important to someone who doesn't adhere to a code of conduct.

Preedy, I would agree that some good folks are a little eager to put the spank on offending folks. But being 'good' doesn't mean you can't be a jerk;-) After all, Jotham is considered a good god by the pantheon arrangement. The issue of a 'chaotic evil' char being neurotic, well, I would think you could have an unpredicatable neurotic of any alignment really. If the 'bad guys' are always bugnuts crazy, no wonder good always wins;-)

And eeeek! I am *so* happy that we're all discussing this, civilly and earnestly... this can only make Fredian a more enjoyable place, right?

Hanah
... really likes Mack and all but hey he's just a *guy* right?

(on edit: sometimes the ProBoards filter makes me laugh... "bugnuts" hee hee hee... that's even better than what I typed!)

[Preedy1978]

While i think you have a fair point Silentus, i have to disagree.....(heh :-) ))

A Lawful Evil character is someone who plots and schemes to get to his own (evil) goals, while seeming to abide by the law. (hence lawful) whilst a chaotic evil character is someone who would not get along with anybody and generally be out of control and nasty. (Hence sometimes you see the title 'Destroyer' on some of those really Chaotic evil monsters/people.

I can see a huge debate on this point of view...but its all good! :-)

I think its just peoples points of view on how they see the allignments would act. I know with Zachaz, he has NO manners, he's also a bighead...BUT he DOES follow the law, openly anyways. :-)

[MitzaVolchenko]

I answered in the equally diffficult category.

I play White Wolf's LARP games in an organization called the Camarilla...I am sure that at least a few people here do too, as I have never seen ragabash as a word anywhere else.

At any rate, having spent years playing a very warped and twisted and bitter assassin on the same floor as people I love more than I love most of my blood relatives, I have ahd the opportunityto truly explre the evil psyche and the mechanics of being an evil character. It isn't easy,and sometimes other players (mostly new players that haven't crashed on my couch or enjoyed one of my poker nights) get upset with me for IC actions. Syler did afterall take a four year old child and calmly slit her throat for the blood to make a poison potent enough to kill her own creator simply because her creator insulted her in public. Erica would never do that, Syler is at core inhuman and evil.

After such scenes when I take off the hood and make up and go out for pizza, the players get to see me as I normally am. Online there isn't really a way to do that, so we have to accept and have faith that the other players understand as we understand that we are playing a role, not acting out our personal fantasies of destruction.

Equally as hard is playing the idealistic pacifistic Child of Gaia that would allow darkness to swallow her up before she would shed innocent blood. Both ends of the spectrum are tough, and the challenge is the reason we play.

And on alighter note, Evil players check this out:

www.wizards-tower.co.uk/page5a.htm

[Silentus]

After beginning to respond to Preedy indicating that he was incorrect, I decided it was time for a personal refresher course on alignment. After consulting the ancient tomes of knowledge (1st, 2nd and 3rd edition Players handbooks), I have come to the following conclusion: Preedy is more correct in this than me (but I dont have to like it)

Yes, we are both right, let me expound:
1st Edition (pg33): Preedy is 95% correct. In this edition the argument had not been bashed on so much and the explaination was simpler LAWFUL = Follows Laws, CHAOTIC = Dislikes restrictions.

2nd Edition (pg 46): Preedy is 65% right. In 2nd Ed, the definitions are explained in more detail, stressing the philisophical vs common manifestations of lawfulness. LAWFUL = Likes Structure, CHAOTIC = Dislikes structure.

3rd Edition (pg 88): Preedy is 75% right. 3rd edition heads back towards a more simple approach to it again, which does simply matters for argument if nothing else.

Result, you can expect me to continue playing the way I do I fully believe that it is a matter of personal direction and responsibility than the adherance to mans laws. However Preedys argument by the book appears more accurate.

Let me leave you with this one parting thought: What happens to a lawful character if the government switches from a rightious one to a corrupt one? My lawful characters alignment does not have to change to maintain his ethics, does yours? Should it?

[Phoenix]

That's a pretty good breakdown. You have to thing about chaotic societies, they have laws too, just less restrictive. It also doesn't mean they will defeat themselves from within because they are chaotic. Lawful evil woudn't murder, there would always be justification for killing, though others might thing the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

[sniven]

You know i run a few pcs here in fredian one n/g Frost perhaps a tad arrogant and hot blooded but generally does the right thing and treats people fairly he does have his moments when he is more neutral than good but what can you do. He tends to react strongly to his environment.

on the other hand i have a true c/e character whom i really enjoy Sniven and most of the good people on fredian really like him. He stirs the pot all the time causing mischief and chaos and truth be told has never gotten into any trouble because he plots and plans and does things people would get astoundedly angry about but only shake their heads and say well.. it sniven what can you do.

I dont feel any role is difficult if you let you pc learn adapt and become as if a real person and make decisions as they would some of you do a wonderful job others.. well there is always time to work on it in the future

I also dont think lawful evil must follow laws but they have a code or honor and dont flinch in fullfilling said code. Where the lawful neutral more want lawfulness not chaos whether good or ill as long as the law brings
or eliminates chaos and of course lawful good tries to uphold good laws and standards but still would not serve an evil law. so just my two cents.

[Tenra]

I dont think evil is all that hard to play as it everyone claiming.You claim server rues stops you, what does it stop you from? Pickpocketing ?nope you are alowed to do that.Murder or killing someone for fear of the pkiller tag?
Well if you Murder someone jump them and kill them, and raise them right after no harm is done no exp or gold loss, while they are down you can tell them they knock out , tied , gaged, or other rp action. Been done by the good folks . Pkilling is killing some one for loss of exp or gold or repeatedly for fun for harrassment. That seems to be the main reason evil says they are limited.
Harassment is the key goes for about every action and rule. Long as your victim in any action does rp shouldnt be any problems. But like last night with Connie Widdows Killing everyone she sees and waiting at temple for thier respawn and repeatedly killing them is Pkilling of the worst sort. But murding in rp like killing someone and rasing right after isnt long as you dont keep doing it to the same person over and over, and if there is ooc problem with that because to cost them a few min of their time then ooc help them or pay them for it.It can be worked out. Plus action like that will add to plots, if its assassination give the person a vague note you can write now. have it say your contract is to kill this person (name or description) and sign X or whatever. Now they know its RP plus have a some proof left at the scene to rp with the law. So murder is still do able in a rp fashion with out saying stand still i'm killing you for RP. Also you evil folks law does not extend out side the city gates you know outside the city . you can be rebels, bandits or what ever just have to behave somewhat in towns because there is law there.

[kline]

I AM THE LORD OF THE DARK BUNNYS
Signed sir Getty the Gnome

Remember evil will always win because good is dumb.

[Preedy1978]

Well...I think Silentus has broken that down better than i ever could! I was right?? Hooray!

Seriously though...after Silentus's masterful breakdown on how that paticular alignment is percieved in the rule books, i still think it is a matter of personal playing style, of how you percieve the alignment to be, and yes Silentus, what would happen if the government turned its ugly head around in an evil style? Hmm...interesting.

Sniven has also hit the nail on the head, but my point to this is that you have been very careful and sensible in how you RP that character: i.e: hiding true intentions, plotting and scheming etc.. A chaotic evil char really though in my opinion does NOT make friends and likes to be utterly nasty and cause trouble in whatever regard and nasty manner he can, including murder, rape pillage etc

Now to Tenra's commment.......hehehe

I agree with you to a point tenra, but the point to this topic is that as soon as you commit those evil acts, even in the best possible rp way. The evil char gets confronted by a hoard of sword carrying do-gooders!

(Just a side note: I'm personally shocked by the actions of Cattdaddy and in every way HATE PKers of ANY sort, i totally agree with Makz view on this, they deserve whatever they get.)

ok...back to topic....My view Tenra, is that if evil isnt so hard to RP, why then is there a vast majority of chars on the server that are of good alignment? (i maybe wrong on this).

[Tenra]

Well I think its pretty even as good to evil, far as numbers. I can Name atleast 10 evil and suspect another 5 or so. then you have about the same neutral.
So all and all its pretty even or close to it,only Makz knows for sure. You commit these evil acts in town course your going to get a hoard of people coming but doesnt mean they are all good hell i bet half are just like a crowd that comes around at car accidents. Rubernecking as they go by.
Ok to the Lawful and Chaotic deal. I tend to think more 2nd Ed, but your alignment on you charater sheet means bupkis, its guide lines to help you. Lawful can mean alot of things... who's law?. Gods law, goverment laws ,which goverments? Even a Paladin can be a murderer, as Hanah said look at Jotham. He not nice at all and when he Starts a holy war anything goes and its all justified in his eyes. Thats great hing about the rp around here your alignment changes faster then your it does on your Sheet. And if having a hard time with the Law and the knights take it outside the gates. And if its the Physcial Power of the Knights make more allies or RUN.

[sniven]

You know just because your evil does not mean you have to advertise being evil i me whats more evil than staughtering everyone in the school house and coming out to sit with the knights of the realm and smile about it and to be honest I think you evil people should remember that the best thing you can do is tie the knights hands i mean think about it slavery isnt illegal and they are property get a few good slaves walk around and smack em down and watch the guards protect you what choice do they have.... heh

Sniven owns one shouldnt we all...

[addicted2rpg]

I got an old hand at doing bad guys. Simply said, evil is harder on Fredian (but not necessarily other places) because of the non-RP people. People arn't *required* to RP on Fredian, which introduces a more complex element. It takes a certain bit of extra work in making assessments about who you are being evil to, and with, and how evil.

We literally have the rainbow of RPrs, from ultra light to ultra heavy, and of course, those who do none at all.

In fact, most server conflicts seem to surround a failure in said assessments, usually two different grades of RP'rs seeing eachother on entirely different levels. With evil, this is certaintly intensified.

[Shwabba]

For those of you who want an excellent example of a Lawful Evil character (as well as a Lawful Evil society) I highly recommend the novel "I, Strahd". It's a wonderful piece of work detailing the rise and rule of Ravenloft's main antagonist, Strahd Von Barovich. Well-written and quite instructional in the correct way of portraying one of the most often inaccurately played alignments.

*sprays Dark Bunny B-Gone(tm) everywhere*

Your Pesticidal Neighborhood Shwabbaman

[Silentus]

In responce to Sniven, I think that Tenra did actually address that evil really doenst have to look evil. Tenra wrote "I can Name at least 10 evil and suspect another 5 or so." I would (like Sniven) like to see that 5 number be higher. Some evil (crazy evil) types will be readily apparent. Most I suspect wil not be advertising it though. Some might not even believe they are themselves. They may not relize that their selfishness is taken to the point where it is at others expense.

Evil harder to play.... Maybe. Perhaps harder to play well. Talanted evil people frequently will scheme to get ahead with less footwork, talented good have a simpler conceptual path but will likely wrok their butts off. From a player RP side I still think good is easier. Subsequently evil has potential to be cooler Frankly the ones Ive had the most fun playing with are the ones who are on the fence, not nessasarily neutral, but flopping their opinions as their life events unfold.