IGMS and Forceful Hand

[FaithIsTruth]

These, without a doubt are the two CHEAPEST spells in the game. Personally I wouldnt use them on a PC ever if I had my choice, if somebody uses one one me however I kinda go off. I dont even HAVE IGMS however, and I survive fine, I think that those of you mages out there should lose IGMS and use forceful hand on fighters only, since they generally have strength.
From a mages point of view, say 2 level 30s Mage A uses forceful hand, Mage B is stunned and KDed for 30 ROUNDS, because Mage B only has 6 strength! In this time Mage A kills him, easily. How in the tone of RP is that? It reduces mage battaling to whoever can get off the first foceful hand.
IGMS, however, is completely obscene. It sends out 20 magic missiles, each doing 1d6 damage (I think) And if I'm not mistaken, it can be empowered and maximized as well. A maximized IGMS would do 120dmg. . . Empowered could do up to twice that, why use something so blatantly foul on an opponent? It's winning, but is it worth it? How much skill does something like that take?
I'd like to know your oppinions on this. . .

Malysia

[ride]

[AvengersWraith]

In most battles, the victor is the one who strikes the first deadly attack, I recommend high Magic Resistence if you dislike those spells. My characters haven't reached the level to use them, but they plan to, the survivability rate of magic-users and sorcerers would be very low if it weren't for respawning.

These are equivilent to a Monk's deadly punch and fighters well used critical hits, I have been hit for well over 100 HPs damage with several different weapons, but a favorite seems to be scythes.

[FaithIsTruth]

AvengersWraith said:

In most battles, the victor is the one who strikes the first deadly attack, I recommend high Magic Resistence if you dislike those spells. My characters haven't reached the level to use them, but they plan to, the survivability rate of magic-users and sorcerers would be very low if it weren't for respawning.

These are equivilent to a Monk's deadly punch and fighters well used critical hits, I have been hit for well over 100 HPs damage with several different weapons, but a favorite seems to be scythes.

I DO have high spell resistance, only to be told this is cheap, it's kinda hard to be a level 29 drow and not have high spell resist. . . Now, my character is level 29, like I said and survives fine without using those spells, as long as there arent level 40 knights running after her. So, as to survivability, if mages just stopped using forceful hand on each other,k maybe there'd be something TO mage battles. An example:

Alia and I were in West Styne, Kenji' (OshGoshBagosh) had attacked us by way of dominated PCs and we were going to execute him. . . Alia casts forceful hand, then firebrand (glad she didnt use IGMS), and I finished him off with a Power Word Kill, somebody remarked, I forget who, that that was the most BORING execution he had ever seen, I'm not sure if he's seen many, but wouldnt it be nice if an execution had something to it other than forceful hand, and an IGMS? Maybe some dispelling. . . And like I said, as far as I'm concerned it is fine to use forceful hand on a fighter, just not IGMS, then you can combat a fighter grappling him and using timestop on him. . .

[Phoenix]

When fighters drop their swords for fists, monks start using weapons, clerics stop using harm, mages should stop casting spells.

There is no single attack that's unstoppable. There are no characters with immunities to everything. Some tactics are weak to others.

Maximized IGSM does 240 damage total, 20 missles 1d12 divided over the number of targets. It's the lesser missle strom that does 20 missles 1d6. If there is only 1 enemy, they get all 240. No save, harsh? Keep digging.

Have you ever seen devastating critical? If you critical you must save vs. fort or die. The DCs are VERY tough, many simply cannot save. Weapon masters can critical with some weapons in a range of 14-20 I think. With 5 or more attacks a round you are pretty much guaranteed one critical/round, if not more. The few of times I have been hit by a person with D-crit I dropped in 2 swings, one swing the first time.

Have you ever seen harm? you loose all but 1d4 hitpoints. That one spell can deal hundreds upon hundres of damage, no save.

Simply put I don't feel ANY of these are two powerfull. Simple explaination is play PnP. There is a 9th level spell call Wish. I'd bet you can figure out what that does. It's been in the game since 1st Ed. It has not been changed (not much anyways) since that edition of DnD back in the 70s. That spell has withstood nearly 30 years of debate and it's still there. If WISH doesn't imbalance DnD, Max. IGSM won't either. Suck it up.

None of these spells or tactics is perfect. They may be against some players, but not all. There is no perfect tactic. Since no tactic is perfect, I think all are fair play.

I play a wizard, and will use this spell, maximized. Why wouldn't I? Why would my *very* smary wizard choose a lesser spell in it's place?It's like asking a fighter to use a +3 weapon instead of that shiney new +5. Hell no they wouldn't. So don't expect a wizard not to use thier full complement of spell, and CERTIANLY don't look down on them for it. Don't hate the player hate the game. (sorry I really, really had to say that ).

Let me throw another scenarion at you. Two fighters with d-crit fight. First one to critical wins. Or a Priest cast Harm/any other spell that does more than 4 damage, and you die.

EDIT: oh, and do you want to offer an alternative strategy? Lets see this server has immune to mind affecting spells, freedom items, immune to death, immune to fear, resist X element up to 25 (that I know of), and many many more that I'm sure I'm not thinking of. *** I DO LIKE THESE ITEMS IN THE GAME, DONT GET ME WRONG***
But... they do limit a casters' options, how many times do I have to cast hold spells to realize everyone has freedom on? Same with many many tactics. I see this tactic as effecient and usefull, something my character would strive for with his magic.

[Preedy1978]

Hmm....whats wrong with the spell? Nothing...there are immunities out there against it....so whats the problem? There are also immunities out there for Forceful hand....hell, i dont even rate the spell myself too high.

What about timestop? I have seen numerous people abuse this spell by casting it and then an offensive spell, then timestop again and so on....Does that sound fair? I know for a fact that the only way to counter a timestop is to cast it yourself.

I think that this tactic is totally lame and there's no skill involved to do this, but i dont want to see timestop banned....because thats taking away another of the wizard's abilities that they have earned.

So whiners carry on whining, and the players will carry on playing.

[Phoenix]

I'm not going to explain how, but there are tactics against time stop. Not all tactics are available to all classes. As a wizard I don't run into melee against a fighter. Think out of the box, and don't face high level characters with out thinking first.

[addicted2rpg]

Yes, IGMS is cheap. I think it was the worst thing they ever could put in SoU. Used correctly, even Firebrand is cheap. Did Bioware ever getting around fixing that bloody bug for 1/2 reflex save?

In any case, Fredian's immunities are even cheaper.

IGMS and BFH are not going to be changed. The only thing I am open to is an SR check for each missile and having them stoppable via the Shield spell.

Regardless, I don't see the need to change them. I said I was open to them, and only that.

This didn't start because you got burnt in PvP did it? Usually PvP maniacs care about this kind of thing the most. Balance of the server is essential to any PK character's survival and success, and they tend to be the greatest whiners on things liek spells. I'm not saying you are. Maybe you feel its BS because you saw someone take out a lot of monsters

In any case, because this is not Bastion Wars where it would be a first priority, the spells will be staying the same aside from bugfixes that Bioware may already be overdue on (and with no intention of fixing, as sometimes occurrs with them.....).

If you have a bug to report, please open a new thread in Technical Support.

[Silentus]

Sorry FaithIsTruth, I have to agree with the others here. every class has its powerplay. Besides, thats part of being a mage - you start off incredibly weak and end up increadibly powerful, its a trade off.

(BTW Phoenix, as a standard fighter with improved crit on a keen scimitar or rapier you get a crit threat on a 12 or better! Add in devestating crit and there are alot of insti-deaths - take it from me )