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Post by wingstriker on Feb 16, 2004 20:48:54 GMT
. What is Evil? Is theft, murder, defiling and robbing tombs, and killing innocents evil? Most people would say so, but good-aligned characters do this all the time in typical games. The actions of a player character exist in the morally gray area of vigilante justice--rarely do PCs take the evil lich or ogre bandit into town for trial. In addition, many creatures are inherently evil: even if a demon has never harmed anyone, players can rest assured that it will do terribly evil things when it has the opportunity. Disturbing these conventions can create interesting roleplaying opportunities, but it's most often best to leave the artificial morality of the game alone. People play to have fun, engage their minds, and socialize; moral arguments can ruin this and destroy the suspension of disbelief necessary for a good game.How evil should PCs be? If your evil PCs are robbing and killing other evil creatures, your game won't look that much different from anyone else's. It will be just as filled with epic adventure and tragedy as any good game. Things become less fun and more troubling when players have their characters attack good-aligned creatures or engage in more disturbing activities like slavery, torture, and rape. Although such elements are covered in various sources to offer scene-setting and scenario possibilities, they usually make for a bad game in the hands of PCs. Almost everyone (but unfortunately not everyone) finds these subjects uncomfortable, and roleplaying such activity will likely lead to some players leaving the game dissatisfied and upset. If you plan to allow evil PCs into your game as a DM, make it clear from the beginning just how far you will allow them to go during play, and let your players know that the session will stop if things get out of hand. There's evil aplenty in lies, murder, betrayal, robbery, assassination, treachery, poison, and plotting.PC against PC One of the most troubling issues when dealing with evil PCs is the tendency for them to turn against one another. Many players figure that since their characters are evil, there's nothing wrong with robbing and murdering other PCs. But not every evil creature is psychotic and bloodthirsty, or so greed-filled that it puts itself above all others. Were that true, evil races would not exist in the game world, and evil individuals would attract so much attention that tohers would bring them down as soon as they cropped up. Evil societies and groups exist for the same reason good people come together: mutual protection, division of duties, companionship, and so on. These are concepts that hold sway over thieves' guilds, pirate crews, and orc tribes, so there's no reason why your player's characters shouldn't abide by them. Just as a DM should limit the evil activities of the PCs, set rules and guidelines for interaction. Make certain that the players understand and agree on how evil PCs will interact with one another or a party of non-evil PCs. Betraying the group might seem like a great roleplaying opportunity, but if often leads to bad feeling all around, and one or more players quitting the group. The Means Justify the Ends If players want to play evil PCs, but the above suggestions aren't workig in a particular campaign, propose this philosophy: The means justify the ends. The PCs, evil though they are, still want to be seen as heros. They take every opportunity to do good deeds and help others, but their eventual goals are wicked. Perhaps they want to enslave a whole kingdom or lead one nation in and effort to exterminate another. To do this, they must first gain the trust and admiration of many people--hence their desire to play the "hero". Think on it people.  Some are pushing the line  |
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Hanah
Elder
Hanah Dedraluin<br>Kether<br>Verine Odama
Posts: 203
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Post by Hanah on Feb 16, 2004 21:48:14 GMT
Thank you, thank you, thank you wingstriker... you've put into a concise, eloquent package the same argument I've been unsuccessfully trying to make for a while.
I can't help but add something though... I get the impression that occasionally people have a difficult time seperating 'good' from 'law' and 'evil' from 'chaos'. I won't even attempt to address the notion of 'neutrality'. This is something that really ought to be addressed by this community. When dealing with such heavy, abstract and ultimately culturally-specific concepts as good/evil and law/chaos it doesn't hurt to discuss it and bring all viewpoints to the table. While we aren't indelibly bound to our alignments they are there as a terse, two-word reminder of the general worldview our PCs choose to represent. Sometimes our characters fail to live up to their chosen ideals but nevertheless it is something they have *chosen* to strive for.
Hanah
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Post by Spathic on Feb 16, 2004 22:30:55 GMT
very VERY well put...
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Post by MitzaVolchenko on Feb 22, 2004 19:29:41 GMT
*chuckles*
Hanah listen to Karl and Mala discussing (ie screaming at the tops of their lungs at each other) what constitutes good, law, justice etc. Yesterday's quest was a great example for those that stayed around long enough for Mala to realize that in finding the right answer she condemned 3 men that she felt were serving justice if not law.
A further suggestion...if you intend to run an evil plotkit, which is great, there is nothing wrong with asking the goodies' players if they are game for the plot along with warnings of this is what may happen...use general terms, don't give away the ending (and this really works both ways for goodies looking to enlist evils for their plots).
In the Camarilla we use a 5 point rating system on our game style sheets to let visitors know what to expect.
Pageantry doesn't apply to this game, but other categories such as mortality, chance for corruption, and political intrigue do apply.
1-players have to work to see this ever
2-players may see this rarely
3-occurs regularly but is avoidable
4-players must work hard to avoid this
5-good luck dodging the plot train
On the sensitive topics front, in my opinion, if you are even questioning if it is sensitive ask the players involved BEFORE you proceed to involve their characters.
*shrugs*
Roleplaying is not about winning or losing, it is about weaving a story where you are more than just a passenger in the mind of a single author, where you can change the ending, draw out the conflicts, and lay aside the story whenit reaches the end for you...though of course there is always that temptation to see what is around just that next bend in the road...
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Post by kline on Feb 22, 2004 21:35:00 GMT
The means justify the ends. The PCs, evil though they are, still want to be seen as heros. They take every opportunity to do good deeds and help others, but their eventual goals are wicked.
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I agree with most of what you said here but this is crazy. If you do good deeds and help others and still are evil you need to be playing someone that is CN. Because that is the CN is. If you take every opportunity to do good deeds and help others and you are evil I believe personally the DM sould start to change your alinment showing that you are becoming good. Same as if you are good and go around doing evil deeds the DM should start changing your alinment to evil.
It is that double edged sword. A cop goes into a drug deal to bust some criminals. The drug lords tell the cop to do some of the drugs that he is buying to see if they are good. The cop says nah that ok man I am cool. The drug lord puts a gun in the cops face and says do it. The cop goes OK knowing that he has no back up at the time and that he is deep undercover. Later the cop takes a drug test and fails. He tells his boss why but do you think that matters no. Sorry the cop gets fired. Did the cop deserve to get fired? Did the cop do an evil act? Did he have an option? Yes yes yes. This is one of those things, it sucks, but it is life. The cop in this example would still go towards to evil alinment side of the board for his acts even though he was trying to do something good.
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Post by MitzaVolchenko on Feb 22, 2004 21:51:01 GMT
Oooh...huge disagree going Kline's way!
Good playing a part to infiltrate evil and vice versa, even when it means acting against alignment does not shift alignment.
In my opinion alignment is the nature of the person...it goes deeper than a good spy chuckling with the bad guys over their successful murder of an innocent (the good guy doesn't really find it funny, but playing along gets him deeper into the next evil plot to stop it).
By the same token, the evil blackguard making pretense at being knightly to get the trust of the Champions of Torm so that he may betray them at the worst possible moment is not going to turn him good. He has evil set in his heart and will bide his time to spring his trap (and if he is really good at being sneaky evil, he will have a perfect alibi for why he isn't the betrayer).
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Post by kline on Feb 22, 2004 21:53:42 GMT
I guess I just played with a lot more HC DM.
The example I used is not a fake one the Cop did get fired it was one of my moms friends. And it happened just like I said. The cop did an evil act just ask him. He knows he maid a mistake and now he is paying for it.
This can go on forever I believe because I will never be able to explain to you all that evil is not always sneaky and underhanded. Evil characters are so different in so many different ways. To say that there is only one type of evil person is just like saying there is only one type of good person. I dont push good people to always be Lawful Good and do things only one way. Robin Hood was concedered to be good. He robbed, killed and broke just about every law in the book. He was still good though I guess. Just lets all have fun and play your characters the way you think they should be played and everything will be fine.
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Post by wingstriker on Feb 23, 2004 2:00:21 GMT
Kline that last part of my post was not an end all to end all but a different suggestion to try.  You are right and that is why I posted what I did to play it your way as long as it doesn’t trespass on morality. I witnessed some role playing that was pushing the edge of true morality and it disturbed me enough to post my first comment. In your example you may be right and that is not for me to say one way or the other if that cop did an evil act or not , that is up to that cop. He on the surface didn’t hurt anyone but himself, but one has to look deep in side one self when you are faced with a life and death situations and I hope most of us are never faced with that. To choose one act over another and a life hangs in the balance of that choice is far harder to live with. I was going to post a story example here but "Disturbing these conventions can create interesting role playing opportunities, but it's most often best to leave the artificial morality of the game alone. People play to have fun, engage their minds, and socialize; moral arguments can ruin this and destroy the suspension of disbelief necessary for a good game" but a evil character that does some good deeds does not mean in its self that he is good or neutral person. I guess it depends on his motive for doing those deeds and what type of deeds they were . Doing good deeds knowing it will cause hurt to someone or death and you don’t care or you are happy it did, well now that still weighs pretty heavily on the evil side of the scales doesn’t it? Thank you Kline for your thoughts on the topic for I do read them and take them to heart as all of us should before judging if they have merit or not. I hope your moms friend finds the balance in his life and for what its worth.....I don’t believe for one moment what he did was an evil act. The drug guy on the other hand new what was going down and did not have any thought that he was forcing someone to do something at gun point. EVIL.......... But even that evil man might do some real good in his life with the money he makes off of others deaths. Even if the 100,000 donation to some charity that he likes helps those in need and they see him doing a GOOD deed but the man knows its just getting him a Tax break. Still EVIL because of the selfish motive "ENDS Justify the means" Evil and Good have been talked and discussed about since man could do both. I believe it will be so way after I die or this world fads into the next. We all have a scale in our souls that weigh what is evil and what is not and so I believe it becomes a personal search. |
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Post by Preedy1978 on Feb 23, 2004 3:31:45 GMT
I have to say i agree with ALL of you.
The way an evil person acts is dependant upon perspective. The perspective of the char, and player as well to a degree.
However, evil isnt killing derto every 3 minutes in front of knights and guards...thats just plain dumb.
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Hanah
Elder
Hanah Dedraluin<br>Kether<br>Verine Odama
Posts: 203
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Post by Hanah on Feb 23, 2004 9:42:32 GMT
However, evil isnt killing derto every 3 minutes in front of knights and guards...thats just plain dumb. Hey all, Hanah's back from her conference;-) I have given this exact issue a lot of thought preedy... killing Derto in front of the knights isn't evil and isn't quite dumb... it's some kind of deeply pathological cry for attention. (Disclaimer: some people do kill Derto for stupid reasons, some for evil reasons. Kindly do not get your back up while I'm making sweeping generalisations please:-)) So what do you do with someone who wants attention? Two options: give it to them or don't. If you give them attention they are likely to associate acts of jackassery with more attention. If you don't, they are likely to leave you alone. It's kind of like parenting or so I've been told;-) It's a tough issue and there are many shades of gray... that's the way of interacting with other people though. I hope that as a community we can agree on standards of behaviour (however broad) and use those standards to enhance the experience we *all* have here on Fredian. Yes sometimes people will make mistakes and that is just something that has to be accepted. Sometimes some 'authentic' RP will be mistaken as foolishness and vice versa. However if we all refrain from taking things in game personally (reference the IC/OOC thread) hurt feelings will be kept to a minimum I suspect. So that being said, how many cataclysms did I miss, huh? Who got married? Who conceived? This is like forgetting to tape my soap opera for three days! (Err... not that I watch soap operas... or much TV since I found this place...) Hanah ... everything I needed to know in life I learned in Elven kindergarten |
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Post by Zhoreb on Feb 23, 2004 11:36:15 GMT
What is evil? A simple question. The answer however, is not.
My opinion of evil irl probably differs from most of your opinions. I don't think using drugs is evil. It's stupid, yes. And bad for your health. The organised crime behind the drugs trade, that is what I call evil.
There's so many aspects to consider. What is perceived as evil will differ from person to person, culture to culture etc.
For example, is a corrupt senator taking bribes from crime lords evil? What if he helped finance that shelter for homeless people? Still evil?
We have two axes to consider, one for Law-Chaos, and one for Good-Evil. They are intertwined. Things like murder, rape etc I would place near the evil end of the Good-Evil axis. Theft is not necessarily evil, and should be placed on the law-chaos axis. If it is evil or not depends on other things.
Anyway, I don't think a evil PC will shift alignment from doing 'good' deeds when it serves a greater evil. The only 2 classes IMHO subject to rapid changes (losing abilities, not necessarily shifting alignment) are Paladin and Blackguard.
What Kline calls CN I call Evil. When a character kills other characters occassionaly, not counting self defence, and sometimes does 'good' deeds, is still evil IMO, not neutral.
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Post by addicted2rpg on Feb 24, 2004 1:18:33 GMT
What is evil? A simple question. The answer however, is not. You've stumbled upon one of the frequent occurences of the universe my friend. Generally simple questions contain complex answers, and the reverse is often true too: complex questions contain simple answers. Sorry, I've been coding WAY too much.... Seriously though, ever see a proof for the communitivity of addition? It's sick! sorry, off topic. I agree, many relative perceptions about evil.  |
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Post by Phoenix on Feb 24, 2004 4:05:05 GMT
...thats just plain dumb. Evil will always win because good is dumb. Don't try to switch this around. ;D |
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Post by MitzaVolchenko on Feb 24, 2004 9:32:54 GMT
If good is dumb (no argument) it does not necessarily follow that evil will win or is smart (see previous rants about STUPID evil).
*does happy dance over a particularly lovely bit of maneuvering*
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Post by Phoenix on Feb 24, 2004 16:00:00 GMT
If good is dumb (no argument) it does not necessarily follow that evil will win or is smart (see previous rants about STUPID evil). *does happy dance over a particularly lovely bit of maneuvering* OK, so taking that one step further. To defeat good you simply must be smart. ;D For example, killing Derto in front of the whole town is easy and dumb. But try killing him in the Fredian forest, that's smart. Generally I agree, killing Derto is dumb, but he was asking for it, he chased me out there 3 times. ^.^ |
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You are right and that is why I posted what I did to play it your way as long as it doesn’t trespass on morality. I witnessed some role playing that was pushing the edge of true morality and it disturbed me enough to post my first comment.
