Hanah
Elder
Hanah Dedraluin<br>Kether<br>Verine Odama
Posts: 203
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Post by Hanah on Mar 1, 2004 19:09:31 GMT
Good day everyone;-)
We've touched on this issue a few times in various threads and I think it is important... if no one else does well then I guess this will be a thread of one comment!
If I may, I'd like to get the community here discussing the issue of storytelling. Fredian has a number of active storytellers both of the DM and player variety. I'll start with my opinions (the only ones I have) but I'd really, really like to get the ball rolling on this and accumulate some input from the rest of you.
1) NWN is not PNP.
This is sometimes hard for those of us who came up from tabletop D&D to remember. You cannot always meet with the same people at the same time each week and not have any events occur in your absence. In this respect an NWN PW more closely resembles real life... stuff happens when you aren't around. You may only pick up certain aspects of a plot through hearsay or garbled recollections from others. When people are constructing stories they would do well to keep this fact in mind... characters may drift in and out of your tale. If you really, really must have certain people around to further a story, maybe give them an IM here or a tell on the server to negotiate that.
2) Fredian is not a movie.
To continue with these terse negative statements, Fredian is something that (IMO) we all came here to participate in, not watch. Stories are wonderful things and clearly we all want to get involved in the ones that entertain us. However, being relegated to footsoldier, meatshield, innocent bystander or (in my case) nurse isn't always a rewarding position to take. That being said, certainly someone has to fill these roles to a certain degree and we can't all be the star all the time. Allow characters to contribute to your story and the chances are excellent it will turn out better than expected and be a surprise to you, the storyteller. But please, if you are telling stories and insist on the involvement of others, LET THEM GET INVOLVED. If people who clearly want to contribute are not allowed to, you may find them losing interest in your drama.
3) Continuity, continuity, continuity.
Fredian is a Persistent World. Things persist here;-) That includes memories, rumours, past wrong doings and lost loves. Try to keep this in mind. If you backstabbed Merrick's chief accountant last week, don't try to ask him for a small business loan this week unless you expect to be turned down/arrested. I think things are getting better in this regard, we see fugitives skulking around in false moustaches and stuff like that, but I'm just bringing up my opinions here.
4) "Armaggedon? But we had armaggedon *last* week."
Not every story has to involve the end of the world, a titanic battle, or a death. In fact, IMO if overused these things grow very stale, very quickly.... it's kind of a 'boy who cried wolf' scenario. People will cease to take it seriously OOC, and our characters will either go crazy from the stress or become totally blasé IC. I don't think these are attractive options to the keen storyteller, so perhaps a consideration of less drastic options is in order. And besides... something very insignificant, hardly worth noting, can change the course of a life. (I just watched Millennium Actress last night, those of you who may have seen it totally know what I mean!)
5) Don't read the last page.
Just like in a good book, a surprise ending is always a treat. (Not that I'm impying tales on Fredian are at all book-like!) For storytellers, try this: don't decide in advance how things will end. Try letting the interactions of personalities, good choices, poor choices, and plain luck dictate where things will go. While certain outcomes can be anticipated, players (myself in particular) quickly grow distracted if we catch a whiff of a planned ending that allows for no flexibility. If the ending is already known it can be discouraging, filling the player with the belief that in the end, their actions never really mattered. Let them tell the story to you as much as you are to them and you may find it a special treat....
This is just me sitting here drinking my coffee and musing about RP and RP storytelling. Please, do not think I am trying to single anyone or any one story out here, if I wanted to do that I would;-) The entire purpose of this post, to re-iterate, is to bring the experienced and inexperienced together to discuss the mechanics of a good, engrossing plot.
Hanah
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Post by Radog on Mar 1, 2004 19:52:42 GMT
All very good points, Hanah. I see alot of the same things you see and I guess I will add my 2 coppers on it... There seems to be some inevitable "blending" of the PvP/powergaming crowd and the RP crowd, which will undoubtedly cause some friction in certain instances. For example, I have seen some new character come into West Styne recently and said, "Sup dude." At that point those who like RP are immediately turned off and most likely will not engage in trying to engage that person to bring them into the plot at all. Another thing I see is there are essentially two sets of characters interacting with each other. One group are the characters who have been "training," RPing, crafting, mingling, and developing for weeks and months, being involved in various plots along the way. The other group is more PvP/Powergaming oriented characters, who show up on the scene on a Monday, and by Thursday, they are level 40, A multimillionaire, have all the best items, seem to have a lot of knowledge about everything, and seem to get into a lot of altercations. The idea of trying to have a persistent plot with these types of characters interacting with the other group is hard because these characters show up quickly and disappear just as fast when the person behind them loses interest in them for whatever reason. And there arent many shared enounters, like training together, RPing together, exploring together, doing business, even getting into it with each other every now and then over time so there is no shared history, hence no persistence. I might chime in again later after I see some more opinions, just a couple of mine...  |
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Post by Preedy1978 on Mar 1, 2004 22:13:24 GMT
Wow,...err...Raddog, IMO thats a pretty accurate analysis of the situation we have here. Unfortunatly, there's not much we can do to change that, we simply cannot force people to do what they dont want to. In regards to Hanah's post, I am in agreement also, flexibility is the matter at hand really, and of course, common sense. People who play here on Fredian come from across the globe on totally different time zones, (trust me, im one of those people) and it simply is NOT practical to make a storyline about where for example I HAVE to be involved in. It goes without saying, I will be asleep, whilst other people will still be playing, and getting stressed out at it all because the storyline is being dragged out because i am not there. (Or another person, for this instance.) My views upon reaching the end of a said 'plot' or story are not complex either: If you have a set ending in mind, be flexible about HOW you reach that ending, OR, if you havent, be flexible in general...and please remember, if someone else does not have a say or any input into said plot other than walking around and hacking monsters up, then they might get bored of the situation very quickly indeed. It goes without saying, that any serious RPer will definitley want to be actively involved in the plot, not just brushed aside....so, lets encourage these people to do so, rather than just brushing them aside for our own personal enjoyment...RP is for EVERYONES enjoyment here...lets keep it that way.  |
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Valen
Young One
Posts: 32
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Post by Valen on Mar 1, 2004 22:18:48 GMT
Well said, Balthazar.......I mean Aviar. (oops  ) , I mean Radog. I agree with you both 100% |
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Post by Phoenix on Mar 1, 2004 22:23:59 GMT
"5) Don't read the last page."
I distinctly remember reading that you should read the last chapter of a book first, that way if you die tomorrow you know how it ends.
^.^
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Post by Radog on Mar 2, 2004 2:35:43 GMT
Balthazar? You went way back on that char, LOL.
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Post by MysaidesCaldier on Mar 2, 2004 18:35:16 GMT
How about this since we all can so openly criticize creativity here let me chime in real quick.
First off if someone takes the time to write you into their tale, the last thing you really want to do is try on purpose to change the entire flow of the story just because you want to see how the player will react to your divine intervention. You want to change the outcome more then the writer wants to allow you then I suggest you write your own:P My best suggetion to all you literary critics who don't like the fact they can't be the villan or hero all the time or the focus of the entire event can I perhaps suggest finding Stephen King I hear he plays on this server as dwarf:P
Second thing most important. Is it your story or are you contributing to the tale? Some puzzles and battles are fought for the sake of fighting them not because you can win. In fact reasonable odds against whatever riddle trial or war you face really does not give the character anything to brag about if the task is not close to impossible. What good is it if evil or good is destroyed without a fight; or even a reasonable time to build the drama? Patience.....Please Patience...Best Stories are ones that leave you hanging and engulf you into them.
Also in the end I would ask most players to keep in mind most people who are writing these tales and these dramas are only getting you involved becasue they think your char can add depth to the tale if you think you can't handle that pls tell them your busy....I would hate to hear how anyone was bored with a quest:)
Lastly and really this is where I am trying to make up for my soapboxing....If you are not having fun then craft...I am sure the world will survive whatever threat is there. Please allow your characters the forsight to see every danger could be mean the end of the World...but most likely not ;D
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Hanah
Elder
Hanah Dedraluin<br>Kether<br>Verine Odama
Posts: 203
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Post by Hanah on Mar 2, 2004 19:11:32 GMT
Mysaides:
With all due respect you are simply not getting the intention of my post. Apparently I was unclear and I will endeavour to make it clearer.
To begin, the term 'criticism' crops up several times in your post. I have yet to see anything but constructive criticism on RP in this forum, and to my knowledge the creative soul who will decline any and all commentary is rare indeed.
No one is asking to win all situations all the time. No one is asking to be the villian/hero/whatever in all situations all the time. No one is asking to be the star of anything. No one is asking for 'bragging rights'. While I can only speak for myself and my own opinions, I believe that the RP people on this server are generally tolerant of being involved in a variety of RP situations in a variety of roles, provided they are allowed to actually *roleplay*.
Frankly, while one player/DM may initiate a story, that story in a sense becomes the creative domain of all who are involved. That is why we roleplay instead of pursuing passive forms of entertainment such as reading a book or watching a play. The very notion that one individual is calling *all* the shots in a story makes said story essentially passive entertainment for those who are involved in non-directorial positions. If we are here to pursue active creative entertainment such an arrangement is defeatist. To repeat, the notion of there being a 'writer' against whom no dispute can be brooked, no suggestions made, and no issues discussed makes this remarkably unrewarding for individuals who are interested in roleplaying their characters. After all, while there may be a 'plot writer' in the scenario you have described, we are all 'personality writers' for our individual characters. What 'writer' takes precedence? Better that a collaborative effort is made than bickering over a non-existent hierarchy.
We are all capable of pursuing our preferred RP styles, Mysaides. I don't think anyone has to 'go craft' if they aren't in full agreement with your particular philosophy. Most certainly I would not expect someone to cease their RP actions because they do not agree with me, and I started this thread in an effort to bring everyone to an understanding on their fellow RP'ers choices.
Your input is graciously appreciated, it brings to light another viewpoint on RP philosophy in Fredian.
Hanah
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Post by MysaidesCaldier on Mar 2, 2004 21:12:23 GMT
Okay I think some do need to go and craft if they don't like my philosophy. From what I am hearing from many is that people refuse to Rp with other because they do not like the event or the person's rp. Now while I am an advocate for free choice and opinions. My question to you Hanah is still at what cost do you show your rp savy? Player A makes an event that causes total turmoil because player b feels they did not get a chance to change the outcome. First off no writer takes precedence in a rped tale because the story should shift as much or as little as the participants rp out. I would like however to bring an important fact to your attention. Any player that tries to put out a campaign is in the truest sense of the word Dming. Now if Nate said to anyone of you that is how its happens good attempt and good rp "the end". None of you would even blink an eye becasue that is his job to make up the story and have you interact with the story. Player Dms seem to get alot of crap because they cannot say I am the dm and I want it this way so there:P They have to by nature give in to the demands of the other players involved. One thing I am trying to make very clear here is that no one should be left out of the world for bad rp...and a cheesy end of the world, all the way down to I have lost my bastard sword and my dog is sick should be treated with the same respect. In my mind I have begun to look at fredian like a giant comic book and the next issue is always a month away. Maybe I am babbling or maybe I am being "constructive" Your call. |
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Post by Preedy1978 on Mar 3, 2004 17:00:09 GMT
Woah! i think we all need to step back here and look at this all for a sec! I think maybe this is getting a little too heated. What we are talking about here, in very basic terms, is basically 'flexibility' in a RP plotline. Now...when all is said and done, at the end of the plot, if people enjoyed it, does it matter if the outcome was good or evil winning? (please bear with the rambling, this will all come together in a second ) What i am trying to say here is really that I like to rp...but i DO like to be involved in the plotlines that crop up once in a while, rather than just being a mobile ornament. Now, with that said, Im NOT saying that my input has to always change the way things are going to happen, because IRL, this isnt the case also. Quite simply...everyone involved has the right to enjoy themselves whilst in RP, not just the people who make up the plotlines. OK..with that said, how can we justify telling someone else how to RP? Everyone has the right to RP how they see fit, (although of course, if they are behaving like an ass, then thats another matter) and just because some people dont like it, they dont really have the right to argue about it...because they RP how they like as well....Quid Pro Quo.. So....all a nice big rambling mess... How about we all worry about how we RP oursleves, and let everyone else worry about themselves too eh? All i ask is that bear in mind OTHER PEOPLE when you RP......and lets make sure we all have fun!! (As far as never RPing with someone again (Where did that come from btw?) I would only ever do this if they offended me OOCly, I wouldnt say this if some RP went bad...because, well, an effort was put into it, so why make them feel worse off by saying you wont rp again with them?) |
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Post by Phoenix on Mar 3, 2004 17:37:37 GMT
The best roleplays I see are when things go off the 'script'. When I involve others in RP I expect their involvement in the RP to not only spice things up, but possibly take new directions. Flexibility is a must, since you may have an idea how the RP will go, but likely no one else does.
Heck last night I think I was a step away from getting the amulet, but I forgot to search a room, my mistake. Do you think that was in the 'script'? HAHAHA yeah right. BTW while I was involved in that RP I also had my own agenda I forwarded. That caused some me trouble in completing the task for the current RP.
My point is you can't count on someone else to do their 'job' in your RP, because, well, they are playing their role, not yours.
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Post by MitzaVolchenko on Mar 3, 2004 18:23:52 GMT
Okay, read it all...
I agree and disagree with just about everything in this thread so far.
I am a heavy proponent of flexibility or in warning the players in advance that the outcome is set and asking if they would like to be along for the ride. This gives the player the option to say, my time is better spent crafting and debating philosophy by the fireside.
I will openly state that there are now two players in whose plots I will not involve my characters no matter how much they ICly should be involved. The reason is that I do not enjoy myself when I am involved with their plots. I find myself going afk to get a drink and a smoke because I am frustrated, and not in that good i-must-be-missing-something sort of way.
*shrugs*
You can't force someone to be involved and you shouldn't refuse to allow anyone that wants in to be involved their chance.
Additionally, as far as DM quests go, try the noble's wife. The group I was with when I did that quest botched it and it ended most unsatisfactorily from an IC point. Mala botched the investigation in Castille ICly because she betrayed what were in her opinion Just men. The DM quests DO NOT have carved in stone endings. There is a person on the other side of those quests altering things to fit the actions of the players.
I vote with my feet and my RP time...if I don't feel like I will enjoy something, I walk from it. If this means that I am now violating my character concepts occasionally, so be it. If the game isn't fun, I won't play it.
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Post by addicted2rpg on Mar 3, 2004 20:42:00 GMT
Okay, read it all... Additionally, as far as DM quests go, try the noble's wife. The group I was with when I did that quest botched it and it ended most unsatisfactorily from an IC point. ....[SNIP]....... The DM quests DO NOT have carved in stone endings. There is a person on the other side of those quests altering things to fit the actions of the players. Thank you so much... *wipes tear from eye* |
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Post by MysaidesCaldier on Mar 3, 2004 22:07:23 GMT
I suggest our new topic be Norwegian fish frys and why people seem to like them? Your thoughts? Anyway back to the acting and scripting debate. You must forgive my early ramblings I was very tired and moody no hard feelings I hope...(that would be a lie) ;D
Many valid points have been made on this thread and I would just like to make sure that everyone knows I am trying to be as open on the topic as I can be. This game has all the expectations of an art show and a perfomance. The other players are as many have said both spectators and participants. Now the line is drawn when the player decides to interact with the plot. Really it is down to yea I like it. Or no I want to go and level or whatever. Just the fact that your player is talking with another one could mean many different ways that interaction is going to change the outcome. Hell in a book that is another chapter of precious char development. Now when I say book really it is not a book but more like your old turn to page 64 if you want to help Radger or if you want to stabb him and bury him page 8. Again many different philosophies of doing things and all are legitimate as long as you are having fun. I unfortunately because of my work schedule I do not get to participate in many event except my own. I hope to all who have explored my plots they find them enjoyable and flexible, but lets face it in the end I know the direction it is going all I leave to the players is how that ending will occur:) Sorry:)
Real quick thought at the end if the story or plot is not able to be changed or altered how could that be if you are there participating in it has your char failed to bring it's own contribution to the tale? That is very doubtful:P
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