Player build :)

[tomysmelter]

PLease tell me what you think of this pc build ,
I have plans for her to be half - fiend , please if there is anything that needs to be fix post it

Starting stats:

STR 18
DEX 13
CON 14
INT 8
WIZ 11
CHA 8
----------------------------
Ending stats :

STR 18 (+12)
DEX 13 (+1)
CON 24 (+7)
INT 23 (+6)
WIZ 8 (-1)
CHA 8
-----------------------------
LVLS : FIGHTER
1. LUCK OF ,WEAPON EX , POWER ATTACK
2. CLEAVE
3. 1 TUMBLE , WEAPON FIN
4. STR 1 , 2CON , 2DIS , WEAPON FOC.
5. 1 TUMBLE . 2 CON, 2 DIS , GREAT CLEAVE , TOUGHNESS.
6. (MESSED UP HERE )
7.1 TUMBLE
8. STR 1 , I DIS , 1CON , IMPROVE CRIT .
9. 1 TUMBLE , DODGE , 2 DIS , 2 CON , MOBILITY .
10. 1 TUMBLE .
11. STR 1 , GREAT FORT, SPRING ATTACK.
12. 1 TUMBLE.
13. KNOCK DOWN .
14. 1 TUMBLE, LIGHTINING RE.
15. STR 1 ,2 CON , 2 DIS , BLIND FIGHT .
16. 1 TUMBLE.
17. (TORM) IMPROVED INT .
18. (FIGHTER) 1 TUMBLE .
19. (TORM) STR 1 .
20. (FIGHTER ) 1 TUMBLE , OVERWHEM CRIT, ARMOR SKIN.
21. (TORM) EPIC TOUGHNESS.
22. (TORM) 1 TUMBLE .
23. (FIGHTER) STR 1 , GREAT STR , EPIC TOUGHNESS.
24. (ROUGE) 1 TUMBLE.
25. (ROUGE) 10 TUMBLE
26. (ROUGE) 5 TUMBLE (30) , DEV CRIT.
27. (FIGHTER) CHA 1 , DIS (MAX) , CON (MAX)
28. (FIGHTER) EPIC TOUGHNESS II
29.(ROUGE) 18 MD , GREAT STR II
30. (ROUGE) 4 TUMBLE .
31. (FIGHTER ) STR 1 , 1 TUMBLE , 2 MD.
32. (ROUGE) 10 MD , GREAT STR III
33. (TORM) DIS 5 , EPIC PROW.
34. () STR 1, 4 TUMBLE , GREAT STR IV
35. (ROUGE) 1 TUMBLE.
36. (ROUGE) EMPROVED EVA.
37. (ROUGE) EPIC FORTITUDE .
38. (FIGHTER) CHA 1 , CON 9 , DIS 5 .
39 .?
40. ??

Did the the best I could to keep it stright , it was late
the pc has 74 AC (with island armor) 659 hp (with island items) . Fort is 61 , Reflex save is 46 , Will is 40 .
AB +54/+49/+44/+39
Damage 1-10 +14 (crit) 17-20/x2

(Keep in mind all class feats )

I need feed back , this is more PVP based build .

Thank you .

[Zhoreb]

Make sure you don't wear a helmet. Otherwise, we cannot see your rouge. I suggest some eyeliner as well .

But seriously, if you want to take advice from one who's PvP knowledge is almost pure theoretical:
Your attack bonus is too low. What kind of weapon did you have in mind to reach that AB? Your AC is a bit lacking too. I know there are builds out there, that can reach to hit rolls of over +80. Or if they aren't out there, it is possible to make one. I have a lvl 40 Fighter / Rogue / Shadowdancer build. It has serious problems hitting high level monsters and PC's with AC > 75.

So if you want to make a character who's main purpose is PvP, or CvC as I would rather call it, I don't think this is the way to go. To be PvP champion, either be a high level mage (35-38 levels, with a few levels of fighter and rogue), or a multi-classed cleric (with fighter, weapon master and / or Champion of Torm). Or for straight melee, take 28 levels of weaponmaster, along with some fighter levels and a few rogue levels. Some other odd builds might work too.
But as I said, my only PvP experience comes from a few arena fights. The rest is theory. I'm absolutely no authority when it comes to PvP. For the 'weaker' builds, I suggest RP, make some friends, and make them do your dirty work for you ;D.

In short: For melee characters to succeed in PvP, +55 to hit is not enough, and on the defense side, AC70 will get you killed in a matter of a few rounds.

[serpitus]

I dont claim to be a CvC (Z i like that term ) either but You are gonna have to explain to me how your Wis goes down 3 and your int goes up 15? Though I understand mistypp ivg very well.

I will also assume the tumble ranks will not be actualy taken until the rogue levels there fore you dont have to cross class them. If you dont know, you can save skillpoints until 40th if you want but feats have to be taken immediately. You in no way maximize the advantages of CHR from Champion of torm which seems short sighted. And WM may be better considered for those levels because of it. How is improved evasion gonna help much if your reflex save is based on a 13 dex and predominately fighter saves and armor? If your con is gonna be that high why not consider Dam Reduction feat. Stops everything and stacks(90% sure)!
And Z +54 isnt bad, A 20 always hits, and this guy got enough hit points to wait for them.

[Phoenix]

Couple of pointers here.

Don't buy tumble with your fighter or CoT levels, save the skill points (you don't have to spend them, as Serpitus said) for your rogue levels where it's not a cross class skill. Actually this is a way to maximize skill points, never buy cross class skills unless NONE of your levels get them. After your 20th, there is no limit on skill points versus level. If you take 20 fighter levels, and save 25 skill points, at 21st level if you take rogue you can spend all 25 saved points an max out tumble like you were a 21st level rogue.

Because of this, take a rogue level at 40th and max out your tumble. Remember your total tumble is what's looked at when you consider tumble for AC. So if you have a -12 armor check, end your tumble at 42. Each 5 points of tumble=1AC, end your tumble on a number divisible by 5.

Zhoreb, anything around a 75AC is pretty good, so 70 can't be awful. Nor'il has about a 75, and he can hold his own in PvP.

Why the high int.? Is the AB with buffing spells and +10 weapons?

The AB looks low, if you can't hit yourself how are you going to hit other people? Much less some of the near 100AC builds out there.

[Zhoreb]

Zhoreb, anything around a 75AC is pretty good, so 70 can't be awful. Nor'il has about a 75, and he can hold his own in PvP.

Yeah, sorry, got carried away a bit . I was preoccupied with a build Barfly and I have tried out. It can reach a very high to hit using only items available in the Advanced Halls of Training Deluxe. For most builds, hitting AC 75 is pretty tough.

And Z +54 isnt bad, A 20 always hits, and this guy got enough hit points to wait for them.

In that case, +23 isn't bad either ;D. But I agree. Everything of +55 and higher is probably above average.

The AB looks low, if you can't hit yourself how are you going to hit other people? Much less some of the near 100AC builds out there.

I know a certain trader with AC 103 (without Expertise that is) , but only a to hit of +60 fully buffed.

Some pointers for the half-fiend build:
I assume the Champion of Torm levels are for the improved saving throws, not the Smite and Wrath feats; low CHA. Together with all the fortitude saving throw enhancer feats you have a good chance of surviving a devastating blow. Also take note of the pointers Phoenix and Serpitus made about skill point distrubution. Never cross class unless necessary.
Why so many rogue levels? Only for Improved Evasion? isn't that good with a low Dex build, but CoT will enhance the saving throws. If you want your saving throws to be high, a few more CoT levels instead of a few Rogue levels might be a good idea. Every 2 epic CoT levels = +1 to saving throws. Or indeed, switch to weaponmaster. At levels 7, 10 and every 3 levels after 10 a weaponmaster gets +1 to hit on chosen weapon(s).
Personally, I don't think Epic Toughness is worth the feat. A few more Great Strengths to enhance your to hit and damage, or take some damage reduction feats.

[Phoenix]

Wait! Epic toughness, is the +20hps right?

If so, NEVER take that feat in multiples of 2, instead take +2 to con (if possible). You will get the same HPs (at 40th level) and have a higher con. for fort. save.

[addicted2rpg]

I think epic tough is +40 hps on level 40 (1hp/level). Am I wrong on this?

The build: junk it. Make another.

You are far better off throwing away those rogue levels and take weaponmaster ones instead, so fighter/CoT/WM. That is what my super-secret PC is. He has a nice 65 AB

The low cha in your case (and for mine, actually) ruin a lot of the point of CoT, but it will build your saves up really well to make you more versatile. This is actually the way I like to play. I'm happy with just the saves. It makes a nice balanced character who is competitive in multiple areas.

If you really want to crank the AB however (although you may lose some of the 1-10 feats CoT has) you can change the CoT levels to weaponmaster ones as well.

You'll also have a little overhead picking up whirlwind attack and some of the pre-requisite feats.

Half-fiend goes really well with rogue so I see where you were going with it, but you should make the build first and then choose the race rather than the other way around.

Level12: what stat are you taking?
Level8: why did you take two stats?

Are you sure this char has the pre-requisites for dev crit,? I think you are just looking at the bonus and not the base.

[Zhoreb]

Tougness = +1 hp a level.
Epic toughness = +20 hp.
So, YES; 2 Greater Constitution nets the same amount of hitpoints you get through 2x Epic toughness. Don't ever take it, unless it's the last possible feat to take for a Epic weaponmaster.

[CrunchX]

Zhoreb, what build is out there that could get +80 AB on fredian?? I'd like to see that

My new build will have +73 or +74 AB and 83 AC.

[kline]

Ok I will jump in here. I have two charaters and one only has a str of 18 natural. Gettys AB buffed is 95 90 85
Kells is 93 87 82 77 how about that. And if Kell used the dagger {he would never use a dagger I am a dwarf} his attack bonus would shoot up to 103 97 92 87. Am I going to tell you how no way.. Find out for yourself ;D

[kline]

Oh how about this one for a build I also have a charater that has 50% concealment fort save of 51 you miss your first attack on him everyround and his AC is an 82 how about them apples. Did I say that he could also cast spells up to 7th mage. And he can also sneak attack doing about 120 a hit . There are so many different builds for you to make out there. None are really less powerful than anouther. It is allot in how you play them.

[Zhoreb]

Not asking to reveal your builds Kline. Just tell me where I go wrong:

Max Base Attack Bonus +30
Max Weapon Enhancement +20
Max Buff AB bonus +20
(epic) Weapon Focus +3
Epic Prowess +1
STR Bonus +20 (don't know the STR cap, so I took 50 STR)
Max WM AB +7 or Max AA AB +15


That's a grand total of +101. (or +109 for AA) What did I miss? Besides how to put all those things into one build that is

<edit1>
Kline, note that your Charactersheet may actually give higher numbers, but when you watch your rolls, everything is capped at +20....

And in the above list, I forgot to mention size AB bonus(halflings and gnomes), nature sense AB bonus, and various roll bonuses(opponent prone, KD with much larger size, disarm with large weapon vs tiny and small). These things do not count towards the +20 cap. And Smite too, according to Joscma.
</edit1>

[serpitus]

Just noticed the AC talk and thought of this

and on the defense side, AC70 will get you killed in a matter of a few rounds.

Yep, try the Castille tourny with a 63. 2-handed weapons are for RP only!!!!! Found that out the hard way.

[JoScMa]

Keep in mind about the AB buffs that there is a +20 cap. Any enhancement bonuses, attack bonuses, or bonuses acquired from *any* spell count towards this +20 cap. For example, if you have a +10 weapon, you can only get another +10 from spells. I know your character sheet displays a higher AB, but that is an error. The only thing that doesn't count towards this cap is Smite Evil (or Good).

[Zhoreb]

I knew your charactersheet would lie to you, but I forgot the weapon enhancement and buffs count towards the same +20 AB cap. So let me revise my previous post:

Max Base Attack Bonus +30
Max Weapon Enhancement and buffs ab Bonus +20
(epic) Weapon Focus +3
Epic Prowess +1
STR Bonus +20 (don't know the STR cap, so I took 50 STR)
Max WM AB +7 or Max AA AB +15

A grand total of +81, or +89 for an AA, if Dex and STR bonusses are capped at +20 as well.

Other things that can modify this score:
Halfling and Gnome Size bonus +1 to AB
Improved Knockdown
Improved Disarm
Opponent Prone
Smite