Charlie
Young One
If it's not Baroque, don't fix it!
Posts: 8
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Post by Charlie on Jul 21, 2004 15:39:06 GMT
A quick question if I may?
That wasn't the quick question by the way, that's coming up next;
The 'True Seeing' spell is quite common among the many arcane characters one might find around, but is it capable of seeing through a stealthy characters natural hiding ability, or does it simply dispel magically generated invisibility?
Forgive my ignorance, but I have never been one for the mumbo-jumbo mystical jiggery-pokery! I'm sure it's very invigorating watching someone crushed by a huge flaming mass of... well flames, and being able to say 'I did that.' But I couldn't hack the years of hard graft and studying.
You can assume from that I'm asking from the point of view of the stealthy character.
Thank you very much in advance!
Charlie!
P.S. Feel free to slate me for such a stupid ignorant question.
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Post by Naraldur on Jul 21, 2004 15:44:23 GMT
I THINK that they see through sneakiness too.
edit for spelling
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Post by addicted2rpg on Jul 21, 2004 16:18:27 GMT
Yes True Sight can see:
1. Hidden characters
2. Characters that are moving silently
3. Invisible characters (through magic) as well.
4. Through Darkness effects.
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serpitus
Elder
I think the gerbil has fallen off the wheel!
Posts: 143
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Post by serpitus on Jul 21, 2004 20:53:33 GMT
A note on sneakiness in general.
I was sitting aorund Raenstadt and all stealthy like. In a certain well frequented place. (if you know where, you know where I mean. dont want to give spoilers away to the new people). Any way so there I am hiding in the shadows not moving or talking and I had somewhere around 30 points in hide. A charecter walks in, oblivious to me ( I asked OOC later). walks to the counter and as he/she gets 1 square away I pop up visible to him then he moves away and I dissapear again. Of course he says hello and I get to thinking Wow is hide a useless skill. Unless I'm wrong about the encounter. But we talked and his search spot listen had no chance of succes against my Skill checks. But there i am all visible to him. Mind you I wasn't hostile or on dislike status but what sneaky person wants to stay dislike to everyone just to be able to use the hide skill.
I guess I'm asking any one else that can confirm this limitation to Hide/move silently skill?
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Post by Cartoonic on Jul 21, 2004 23:13:52 GMT
Heres a little point.. unless your a shadowdancer if you hide right infront of someone they will still see you because you don't have the ability to hide in plain sight.. in order for you to dissapear is to walk around a corner where they can't see you THEN dissapear.. I learnt that a little while ago. ;D
Cartoonic
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Post by Naraldur on Jul 21, 2004 23:44:48 GMT
A good point Cartoonic.
And Serpitus, if someone runs into you or comes very close to doing so, you WILL appear to them, and they CAN tell that you're hiding. No different than when a troll chief casts invis and you can just walk to the center of the green spell circle to make him appear. It works for monsters too, you can go invis, run into a burly monster, draw him away from the group (he'll chase you), and take him down when he's alone, it's a useful strategy. At any rate, it's a realism point--in RL, it doesn't matter how good you can hide if I walk into you.
The fact that you disappear when the person walks away is due to the fact that you ARE still hiding well, the person only saw you because he could feel/smell you (or hear you breathing), and thus, looked directly and knowingly at you. You do that creepy "slink back into the shadows" effect the second the person's attention leaves you.
All of the above is normal, and how the game is intended to operate.
[edit for grammar]
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serpitus
Elder
I think the gerbil has fallen off the wheel!
Posts: 143
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Post by serpitus on Jul 22, 2004 5:05:30 GMT
Alright Thanks for the input! But....
HiPS-> I was behind a door when I went all stealthy. I would think that was better than around a corner.
Ill set it up "you failed to force door open " Because you can see this message from inside the room. I moved back against the wall next to a nice bookcase for shadow. "You forced the door open" Hit (for me) F1 stealth mode. My initative is well the plus is +18. I go all sneaky, door opens. Person walks in. turns immediately right and goes to the counter. Never is the person in base to base contact with me, never do I move, never do I speak. Just as he passes "Bling" there i am.
He didn't get the "run to the middle of the green circle" effect you do with trolls. Or bump into me. I was against the opposite wall. For realism he never gave that part of the room a second thought, he went straight to the counter.
So I figure there is a minimum distance that you automatically appear to people that are freindly (non-dislike) or neutral (which is default I think). That is no problem but who wants to be a hater of the world and keep all people on dislike. I can't confirm the dislike scenario but what am I missing. If its right then you go all dislike and it shows up in the right hand screen for them to see. "Hmm why is this unknown person disliking me?" "Oh there he is lets start the fireworks".
Only other thing I can think of is he got multiple skill checks each round. And eventually I rolled a one.
If either is so, Hiding as a skill, say for espionage, tailing a victim, sneaking into the kings bedroom and leaving nasty notes in your rivals handwriting, etc... are impossible. Or the use of hiding as a skill is only for a one time sneak attack (in one on one)and combat usefull only. That seems limiting for RP players. If so why waste good skill points on useless, by game mechanics, skills? I know truth pretty much ruins hide for use on post level 32 chars but this could ruin it for all chars.
We are getting away from the original question of True sight but that was well answered by A2RPG and this is still a "Now you see me" question.
Well What does any one else know or think?
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Post by addicted2rpg on Jul 22, 2004 11:08:16 GMT
Wrong  If a character steps on you and you are hiding, you will not be visible. This behavior is for the invisibliity spell alone. You CAN disappear in plain sight without hide in plain sight shadowdancer feat. Spot/Listen is why you were seen. Probably just spot because you were not moving. Spot is always better than listen for finding hidden characters, but does not work if someone is beyond the front 120 degree arc of your character, in which you will need listen (for sneaking up behind you, but they have to be walking not standing still). The reason you disappeared is the character engaged in another action and lost line of sight (probably talking to a certain NPC in your certain place). As you corner sneakers will know, any break in line of sight can cause a character to be come hidden....But it is not exluded to walls. There is also the case where if someone walks far enough away from you that you can hide, I usually see this happen on the fogline of a clear area. They are barely visible (only by holding tab, really) and then they suddenly fade without moving when they hit hide (no SD). You might want to grab a buddy and try it out |
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Charlie
Young One
If it's not Baroque, don't fix it!
Posts: 8
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Post by Charlie on Jul 22, 2004 11:13:26 GMT
We'll seeing as I asked the first question (And got the answer; thank you very much folks!), I'm not really qualified to answer that question.
But I'm going to hope the answer is a good 'un! You need a bit of stealth to keep to your self! See what I did there? ;D
Another point about being in stealth mode is that if you are spotted you have no way of knowing until the guy with excellent eye sight and a big sword is bearing down on you sharpish. Of course, if the far to observant person who spots you is RPing that they're sneakily not letting on that they've spotted you, this is quite understandable that you'd be none the wiser. I'm not really sure what my point was... oh well, maybe someone else can make one?
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Post by Silentus on Jul 22, 2004 12:36:33 GMT
This topic comes up once in a while, let put it to rest once and for all and Ill post it somwhere permanent.
NOTE: The methods listed may not be correct - Im looking for verifiaction/explainations. Anyone who is certain of any of these, please respond with how they work. Avoid speculation please
Summary:
DETECTION
True Sight - magical - Exposes everything?
Spot - visual - examines for all crearures in 120deg forward arc if in line of sight
Listen - audible - examines for moving creatures in 360deg including around corners but not as well as spot
Step on - physical - Will expose invisibility spell (not others)
EVASION
Hide - Increases difficulty vs spot - fails if within line of sight (unless very far away)
Hide in plain sight - Same as hide, but can be in line of sight
Move Silent - Increases difficulty vs Listen
Darkness - Increases (maybe destroys) Spot and listen?
Invisibility - Increases difficulty vs Spot & Listen
Sanctuary - Not sure
Greater Sanctuary - Not sure
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Post by Naraldur on Jul 22, 2004 14:02:33 GMT
Greater Sanctuary APPARENLTY, based on the rulebook, makes you visible but invincible... SW33TN3SS! I'm going to have to try that! At any rate, you lose it if you attack someone, so it's easy to get around with NWN's god-awful system for Attacks of Opportunity bypassing all special abilities that require you to NOT ATTACK. Stupid Bioware, you should be able toggle off your character making attacks of opportunity.
At any rate, regular Sanctuary just works like invis, except that a) you can't be stepped on for detection and b) people test against a low-DC will save to see you.
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Post by addicted2rpg on Jul 22, 2004 14:53:13 GMT
This topic comes up once in a while, let put it to rest once and for all and Ill post it somwhere permanent.
NOTE: The methods listed may not be correct - Im looking for verifiaction/explainations. Anyone who is certain of any of these, please respond with how they work. Avoid speculation pleaseSummary: DETECTIONTrue Sight - magical - Exposes everything? Yes, with full certainty. May also appear as an item property. I believe the arc is 120 deg although I think I have spotted people in some of the pvps maybe around 140 -- but it is definitely in front of your character. You will never spot anyone behind you. Of this, I am sure. All true, although there is a misconception when I said not as good as spot. I meant spot is more useful for finding hiding people because it can detect them even if they are not moving. Hide applies to people in motion too. Thus, if your PC had limited skill points and was forced to choose, I was only recommending spot in preference to listen. Listen rolls against Move Silently, Spot rolls against Hide (which is in effect even whlie in motion). There is a certain base sense of perception. This is a fact. I do not know the value, however. i.e., a player with zero listen vs. a player with zero move silently (but lots of hide) decides to move and is noticed. Fact: Your wisdom bonus adds to your spot/listen. On servers where the true sight spell is disabled, elven monks are a popular choice for being "spotters". Two characters cannot occupy the same space. If you run into a hiding person, you can actually have your path blocked. Like people who are not hidden, this usually results in sliding someone out of the way or bending around them. Some players attribute this warp of movement on their screen to lag. There is a range (I can speculate that it is 5' but this is -not- certain) of adjacency. Whatever value that range is, when that range is entered, an invisible person can be seen. By invisible, I mean a casting of the invisibility spell, improved invisiblity spell, or other invisiblility spell-like affect. True. True, and the user must not have anything in their action queue such as combat, drinking a potion, or casting a spell, opening a door, etc.. Any actionsi n the top left corner of the screen must be cleared. This is why many shadowdancers move like 1 step before hiding again, because motion clears the action queue. Correct. I am unsure, but I do not htink you can safely assert that. With the ultravision spell, spot and listen may be very much active. However, a player entering darkness can be considered "outside the line of sight" and may re-hide (without needing Hide in Plain Sight) within the darkness cloud, if and only if the perceiving person is not affected by true sight. This may also be the case for ultravision, but I have not tested this so we cannot ascertain that for sure at this time. Even if it is an intended behavior, I cannot say that Bioware software does everything it intends. I havn't tested, although it sounds like you are assuming a scenario in which someone has casted the invisiblity spell, and then is hiding in the shadows in addition to that. Spot and Listen can *never* uncover invisibility. In theory if you were standing right next to someone though (this allows the invisibility detection), additional rolls of spot/listen may also find them hiding. I do not know how the Bioware engine handles this, but it is worth testing. This isn't detection related as to what actions are permitted to be performed on a sanctuaried person. I need my hotu manual to give you a non-speculative answer (it has to do with will saves though, it may not allow the save. Will get back to you) |
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Post by Silentus on Jul 22, 2004 16:28:32 GMT
Hide and Seek Synopses
NOTE: The methods listed may not be correct - Im looking for verifiaction/explainations. Anyone who is certain of any of these, please respond with how they work. Avoid speculation please. This summary is after Addicteds assertions and speculations - he tends to be well informed on this topic  Green indicates high confidence/verified factYellow indicates some data may need clarificationRed indicates very speculativeDETECTIONTrue Sight - magical - (vs All) Exposes every method of concealing location Spot - visual - (vs Hide) examines for all non-magically hidden creatures in front of you (probably 120deg forward arc) if in line of sight Listen - audible - (vs Move silent) examines for all non-magically hidden moving creatures in 360deg including around corners Adjecentcy - physical - (vs Invisibility) Exposes invisibile creatures (ie Inv or Impr Inv spell and spell like effects) if very near to them - no effect on other forms of concealment though. Ultravision - magical - Does this effect Darkness spell/spell-like effects? EVASIONHide - Increases difficulty vs spot - fails if within line of sight (unless very far away) Hide in plain sight - Same as hide, but can be in line of sight Move Silent - Increases difficulty vs Listen Darkness - Needs research* (per Addicted2RPG) With the ultravision spell, spot and listen may be very much active. However, a player entering darkness can be considered "outside the line of sight" and may re-hide (without needing Hide in Plain Sight) within the darkness cloud, if and only if the perceiving person is not affected by true sight. This may also be the case for ultravision, but I have not tested this so we cannot ascertain that for sure at this time. Invisibility - (vs adjecentcy) Determinable via adjacentcy or magical detectoin/dispelling. Renders Spot and Listen checks useless. Sanctuary - Visible, but protected from many actions Greater Sanctuary - Not sure
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Post by Naraldur on Jul 22, 2004 18:08:36 GMT
Sanctuary - Visible, but protected from many actions Greater Sanctuary - Not sure Okay, did you read a word I wrote? Allow me to repeat myself, formatted better, since you basically ignored me: Sanctuary DEFINITELY works as follows: When the spell is cast, everyone nearby makes a will save against a fairly low DC (hey, it's only level 1). Those that pass see the caster of the spell as being translucent with purple swirlies around him/her; those that fail cannot see the caster at all, including detection skills but excluding truesight. "Tripping" over the caster does not reveal him/her if you fail the check, they remain invisible, I have tested this. Anyone approaching the caster from off-screen will make a will save upon getting within range of the caster (which, to a PC, warns them that someone is there with the spell on, even if they fail it, because you see the roll). Greater Sanctuary... oops, I goofed here, misread first time. Also, I haven't tried this, so there may be a save involved, even though the manual doesn't mention it. All it says is, "The caster becomes ethereal. No other creature can detect the caster. Attacking or performing a hostile action will dispel Greater Sanctuary." [Edit: Didn't fully read you second post, I was agitated that you ignored me; here's some info about the other red items.] Ultravision: Rulebook says "provides darkvision and low-light vision" but doesn't say whether you can see through the darkness spell. I believe the game has a much better description, but I can't access it now. However, I'm going to say that it does let you see through the spell, because when I was playing an assassin, I'm pretty sure I bought a bunch of ultravision scrolls to see through my own darkness spell. I used it a lot, since it works much like hiding in plain sight when you're in the cloud: basically every other attack is a death attack. ;D The only problem here is that it might have been truesight scrolls. I really think it was ultravision though. Racial darkvision, it should be noted, does NOT help with the darkness spell. |
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Post by Phoenix on Jul 22, 2004 18:58:47 GMT
Rocks, glass house, stone throw away...  edit: ultravision does see through darkness. |
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