Hanah
Elder
Hanah Dedraluin<br>Kether<br>Verine Odama
Posts: 203
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Post by Hanah on Jan 20, 2004 20:29:24 GMT
Silentus, you and I have spoken about criminal justice, as have Nat and I, but I'd like to throw out some more points for general perusal, read or discard as you will folks...
1) Having a jail without having a concrete justice system is just wild.... and very tyrannical to be honest. Why are the hardcore lawful folks not raising more of a clamour ic about this?
2) The distinction between ic and ooc punishment is a critical issue here, and really, really needs to be hammered out by the community. So, in addition to time in jail, the original system proposed by Silentus included things like gold deduction, possession deduction, etc... any thoughts on those points?
3) Us chaotics *ahem* should be quite irate at the thought that one measly little knight has a bigger say than anyone else... not to give you grief Mack but really, if someone is fundamentally opposed to a legal structure ic (whether they are CG, CN or CE), perhaps we ought to explore ways of expressing that. That being said, Hanah (a chaotic good) doesn't even bother with the "High King" stuff, preferring to think of Merrick as a nice enough guy who sits in a fancy chair;-)
4) What is the meaning of murder in a world where residents are yanked back from death's embrace on a daily basis?
5) Vigilante-style behaviour is on the rise imo. Should we have a means to deal with this as well? After all, a vigilante is defined as someone who takes the law into their own hands, and (s)he who holds the law...
6) Please please please for the love of little green apples don't put a cell in West Styne, it's noisy enough there as it is:-) How about Inner Styne Castle, and ummm how about a rotten fruit purchasable while we are at it:-)
7) Slavery as a punishment is an awesome idea, but yeah there is that whole 'consent' thing... *grumble* Then again, those who are RP'ing a bad guy ought to be prepared to RP the consequences of said RP, yes? So take that into consideration if you wanna play Snidely Whiplash, fellow Fredians.
Please do not take any of these points as me telling anyone how to roleplay, I'm just thinking out loud (particularly points 1 and 3). I also really want to thank Mackenzie Cainalson (JoScMa) for his unflinching commitment to RP'ing the sherrif in the wild west of Fredian. Dude, you rock exceedingly, and have got to have patience that would make the Buddha weep with envy. So thank you thank you thank you Mack, you are indeed appreciated.
Hanah
... more likely to hunger strike than violently protest;-)
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Post by Phoenix on Jan 20, 2004 20:32:56 GMT
3 Problems with removing equipment. 1. Is it fun for the evil person RPing? 2. Will anyone commit a crime with this punishment? 3. Bugs=permanant loss of EQ=losing player. While it's realistic to kill/permanently jail a murder, or remove the hands/fingers of a thief. Would you suggest these if they could be implemented? It's an extreme, granted, but any punishment has to be tolerable by the players behind the character. I just don't see me (not my character) commiting crimes with that punishment. Damien as a warden is a little harsh and not very realistic. If you had someone that tough, they would be defending the city, not the jail... I want it hard to get out, but not impossible for 95-99% of the players. Otherwise just make it impossible to escape, as it takes a lot (strong party) to take him down. Edit: wow this topic is moving fast, every time I hit reply there is another great post that was posted WHILE I'm replying, keep them coming.  HEHE, there's another while I'm editing!!! Hanah, On #4, that's just something we have to RP around. There is 0 RP to respawning, at least more than once. Since this isn't a HCR server (I wouldn't be here if it was) it's something we have to deal with. #6 I hate green apples. But OK, it is kinda noisy there... What about a public cell near the spawn point, just out of hearing distance from the fire. That way jailee's whining for more food and a place to sleep won't bother the fine citizens chumming it up near ye' old fire. It just loses the affect if no one see's them, like if it were in Inner Styne Castle... |
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Post by Preedy1978 on Jan 20, 2004 20:47:55 GMT
Hmm...I think this is all getting too complicated again...i still believe that a SIMPLE system is the way to go.
I like the idea of wands and i hope they are implemented...i have seen these work on another server and they DO cut down on the amount of IC crime. (they even help towards OC behaviour as well.)
As for Hanah's comment about tyranny..*laughs* Isnt any justice system flawed? Thats just real life...so why not put it in the game anyways?
Lets just keep everything here simple...that way more people woill understand it and it will be easier to implement and place into the game....
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Post by addicted2rpg on Jan 20, 2004 20:59:12 GMT
This is like a tree. At the root, the original post I put up where I said "Build from here", a lot of agreement was found in a simple, basic system. As the ideas spread out acrossed the branches, getting more and more complex, we see variations and differences in opinion. Now what did I say about starting with something basic? That will certiantly be what I will do. The only real idea that I find interesting beyond the initial is the realistic updates to the jail wand (dazed, flat footed, etc.. effects determining ease or difficulty of capture), and the notion that someone brought up about having "guards" and the possibility of someone getting sprung via a prison break in. This will add fun to the knights too, because they can help the defending NPCs. One thing I got to worry about is if the NPCs are aggressive to a player and a knight jails them in the middle of the fight (its possible), and the aggressive NPC walks up to the jail door and tries to swing at the guy inside, but can't reach. Bioware uses a "Nearest Opponent" approach to its AI and in theory the NPCs will stop defending the prison while trying to swing at the 1 guy in the jail cell. A clever prison break could use this to thwart the guards. Who here thought of that one? I'll come up with something. I'm pretty good at monster AI after all I've done to make Damien Swift, who I might add, is still bugged.... I know exactly whats wrong with that too just need to send the update in.... A lot of nice ideas out there though, but these are probably only two I will adopt initially. Slavery, gallows, et. al. will probably be on the discussion table *after* this system is already coded and in the game, debugged, and satisfactory. The only thing really open is some general guidelines for the knights to follow (they don't HAVE to; its entirely possible a corrupt force of Knights takes over..... of course, King Wend could fire them if he finds out about it, but the guidance will help them do their job a lot better) and length of time for sentences served. |
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Post by Phoenix on Jan 20, 2004 21:29:40 GMT
One thing I got to worry about is if the NPCs are aggressive to a player and a knight jails them in the middle of the fight (its possible), and the aggressive NPC walks up to the jail door and tries to swing at the guy inside, but can't reach. Bioware uses a "Nearest Opponent" approach to its AI and in theory the NPCs will stop defending the prison while trying to swing at the 1 guy in the jail cell. A clever prison break could use this to thwart the guards. Who here thought of that one? *hangs head in shame and raises hand* Sorry, I though of that, but I couldn't get past the part where once my friends enter the area and get close enough to flip the switch, the guards would now be close to them, and attack anyways. My scenario was a little different, having the jailee attack (ray of frost?) the guards to do the same. That wouldn't require the much harder step of jailing someone with a negative NPC affinity, by generating your own. At any rate it shouldn't work if the switch is near the jail door if we (jail breakers) are partied, if we are not I (jailee) have to deal with angry guards once they DO open the door. So the basics are layed out, all that's left is laws and punishment? |
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Post by Preedy1978 on Jan 22, 2004 18:49:40 GMT
Heh..ok addicted, you got me! I just looked on in depair as LOADS of ideas came flooding in and seemed to make things really complex. (Im not saying that they were bad ideas...but there was an awful lot there)
Well...Im all for it anyways...cant wait for ANY new stuff to enter the realm!
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Post by AvengersWraith on Jan 23, 2004 4:05:07 GMT
For characters who are sent to jail I want to make sure the player doesn't wander off while his character stands/sits it out.
Addicted, this idea is for you to handle if Mak approves it.
To ensure a player does his time along with the character an invisible, indestructible NPC should ask the prisoner 100 questions in random order. The questions should provide the answer within it, the point is to make sure the player is at the keyboard typing in the answers as they are asked. The player (except for the innocent characters that get jailed wrongly, which will happen eventually) controls the character, that control should not be taking a break while his character is in jail.
I also think that 5 to 10 minutes for stealing is find, but 30 minutes for murder should be there, getting caught doing the crime should sting. Characters who are jailed for murder should be allowed to ask for execution, and an NPC with the ability to deduct the full amount of XP (even if it causes a level drop) allowing the player/character to then move on with life in Fredian.
Players who escape from jail should get a token that tells gaurds they are an escaped prisoner and need to be apprehended, and once they are in jail again the token is removed.
Just because it is a fantasy world and a fantasy crime doesn't mean there shouldn't be consquences, it just means they need to be sneakier.
Players are already committing crimes and leading the observing gaurds on wild chases and ditching them, I would love for those characters to be given a token marking them as a criminal needing to be captured and the gaurds scripted to not follow them out of their assigned areas.
These tokens will be the equivilent of wanted posters given to gaurds for reference.
Scripting it so the gaurds don't leave their assigned areas will keep criminals from leading the gaurds away from assigned areas leaving those areas open to criminal activity.
If you have the time and think it will add to criminal system the way I think it would, you can script bounty hunters to randomly walk wilderness areas looking for wanted criminals and escaped prisoners. Make them criminal types look over their shoulders.
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Post by Silentus on Jan 23, 2004 15:54:35 GMT
Hehe, Hey Pheonix, you probably didn't think you'd find someone with harsher penalties than me hey? I have to disagree with you on this on Avengerswraith, the 100 questions is too harsh - your punishing the player, not the character with it. I would highly encourage those in jail to RP it though. I do agree with the 30 mins (frankly I would go more, but thats me As far as the tokens, again (at least for now) I think that might be overcomplicating matters. |
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Post by Phoenix on Jan 23, 2004 16:17:59 GMT
100 questions, do I get an SAT score when I'm done? Maybe raise my intelligence some? Some people are gluttons for punishment.  The token idea is interesting, maybe something for a later revision. Could also be used to determine length of stay. More tokens from past crimes (even if the sentance was served) means longer stays for current crimes. |
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Post by Preedy1978 on Jan 23, 2004 16:37:04 GMT
Hmm, im against the 100 questions idea Anvenger....it sounds a bit too harsh.
I do like the idea of spending 30 minutes inside for a serious (murder) offence- It will make the evil types think about commiting the crime in the first place, as it should be.
(Or it could just make the evil types more cunning and make up strategies of how not to be caught....hehehe)
This is getting really interesting now!
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Post by AvengersWraith on Jan 23, 2004 17:01:45 GMT
The 100 questions idea comes from observing players having their characters do their prison time on another server. They would log in and go shopping or to bed, this is not RPing being in jail. think of the 100 question idea, doesn't need to be 100 questions, as a prisoner check system. If we are not going to have lengthy jail times for crimes, the least we can do is make sure the players are there to RP the time in jail also. If they get 5 minutes for stealing, they should not be able to run to the kitchen have a snack and come back in time to commit more crimes. 30 minutes for murder, that's enough time to go get some fast food and eat.
As the cliche' goes, " Don't do the crime if you ain't got the time".
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Post by Preedy1978 on Jan 23, 2004 17:22:31 GMT
wow...quick response lol
I agree with you...but i dont.
The punishment is IC not OOC...is it fair to punish someone OOC for an IC offence?
Perhaps something not quite so harsh would be good. I agree with the principle, but the 100 questions idea specifically i disagree with.
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Post by Silentus on Jan 23, 2004 18:41:21 GMT
;D Thats it! Lets hunt down the player and put them in a cell for the duration! ;D
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Post by AvengersWraith on Jan 23, 2004 19:15:22 GMT
30 minutes real time is less than 1 day in game time, hardly befitting a murderer or mass murderer, and yes, the player and character should be required to do the time together.
If the character murders another player and that player isn't raised or reserrected by another character, that player is going to be "PUNISHED" for being murdered unless they decide to leave the dead character there indefinitely so they don't get hit with an XP and GP penalty.
That player who's character was just killed has to make a dice roll to see if they even remember who killed them if nobody is around to help them.
If they can RP the crime they can RP the time, come up with a plan better than them answering questions by an NPC to make sure they don't skip out for a meal or snack and post it.
Prison is only if the criminal is caught, convicted in some way and then chooses not to be executed to save their gold and experience.
5 minutes and 30 minutes are both less than 1 IC game day, those are extremely mild punishments for theft and murder, I don't even think that would equate to a judge using the gavel to proclaim "you're being punished for criminal activity", it doesn't even qualify as a slap on the wrist for the real equasion of the same crimes in modern society, let alone barbaric and/or archaic judicial systems.
The point is to help the player associate with the criminal activity of the character, if the character gets away with the theft or murder the player will reap whatever benefits they get from doing the crime. They be high-fiving their friends in the woods afterwards bragging about getting away with it or collecting gold if it was an assassination.
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Post by Phoenix on Jan 23, 2004 19:30:52 GMT
IC punishment and OOC punishment are different. Player punishment should ONLY happen because they broke the rules, not because they played an evil character well and get caught. In fact, if anything, the player should be REWARDED for good RP if that happens.
If a player wants to sit out the jail time by eating something, cleaning the house, or taking a poo I really don't care. It's the fact that their character is in jail and cannot play that's the punishment, and that only affects the character.
Like I said before you can make punishment real, why not simple cut the hands off of a theif/mage. I'm sure it could be scripted so these people could never cast or steal again, if you want reality. Or we could jail people forever for murder, o wait, lets delete their character because the were hung them at the gallows and can never respawn. /sarcasm
I think the point is not to reflect reality, but to give more roleplay options other than attack/kill the murder/thief. If you make these other options too sour people will just respawn and never go to jail... I think I would be willing to accept harsher punishment that XP and gold loss if it wasn't too bad. Push someone over that imaginary line and I simple respawn and end the role play.
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HEHE, there's another while I'm editing!!!
