Criminal justice v.2?

[addicted2rpg]

I'm waiting for the next post Criminal Justice by Silentus.

How you doing on that Silentus? Up for compiling the last thread and throwing us out a new one?

[Silentus]

Ummm, well.... I didnt really have a pt 2 involved Baiscally while most people seemed to think having a CJ system was a good idea - I didnt see alot of people too happy with what I put out (some did, but most just had issues with it). The real problem here is that we have too many people with different opinions and they are not likely to agree on any one system. It is a mix of alot of small ideas, which few are likely to agree upon. Thats part of the reason Frost had such a hard time.

I suppose we could take a step-by-step approach on this, one point at a time, with polls on each and encouragement for people to air thier opinions, but I fear it may end up an excersise in futility. Frankly, I do not want to pursue it further just to end up in the same place we are now. Do people want me to bother with this? Are we better off just electing another official or set of them and trying to ram something down the poeples thoats anyway? I dont know anymore.

[Phoenix]

Hmm, I like the idea of a justice system in general and I think there are things we could do to make most people happy. My bigest issue with the other system is punishment. While I do want something I didn't like the idea of not being able to play with my character for extended periods, or loosing equipment. Both sounded too much like player punishment, not character punishment.

I was kinda harsh on the last system, but only because it wasn't in place yet. The thing is, if we can agree, in general, there should be less complaints once it is in the game. Maybe it should start simple and grow from there instead of a full blown system?

[addicted2rpg]

How about this?

--A knight's opinion is law, even if he is wrong
--No trials
--Jail done with wand and jail areas.
--Jail time expires after a whopping *5* minutes of imprisonment.

Build from here.

[Phoenix]

Sounds simple, and effective, I like it. How about a wand that raises (not rez ) people and puts sends them to Ranestadt. This gives the jailee a chance to run/fight his way out of it, instead of it being automatic justice. 5 minutes sounds kosher, any way out other than to wait? Maybe have some token system the more times you are sent the longer the wait is...

[AvengersWraith]

I think the justice system should be simple and two catagories of crimes with individual punishments for each type.

PICKING ANYONES POCKETS, STEALING NPC CHICKENS or COWS, DELIBERETY BREAKING PRIVATE CHESTS : 5 minutes prison time and restitution.

KILLING ANYONE (including the begger): 5000 XP Penalty (with possible level drop), 5000 GP Restitution and choice of public execution (full xp and gp loss, must respawn) or 5 game clock hours of prison time.

To keep it simple we play by lynch mob rules; towns folk (NPCs and characters that are residents of the town where the crime occured) automatically win calling someone guilty; player character vs. player character, the character with the most people siding with them wins or we could have trial by combat.

Extremists of all types will do their best to manipulate the system to their advantage, which merely means planning on having your friends around at the right time, and the innocent shall suffer the most; but most judicial systems in anchient times were archaic at best.

[Phoenix]

There is a difference between breaking a law and breaking a rule. Breaking the law=character punishment, breaking a rule=player punishment.

Following that line of thinking breaking into personal chests (exploiting a bug) is a player issue, and DMs should be involved if necessary.

Docking XP and extended jail time (basically a temporary server ban) are player punishments, possibly punishment for something like breaking into a chest.

Any justice system will have to be mindfull of the difference between the two otherwise. A. it will not be fun and B. people will have major issues with it. Remember the harsher the punishment the more likely it is to turn people off to it. Punishment that's not painfull (to the player) can encourage good roleplaying, anything that the player says 'ouch' to will discourage it.

[Shwabba]

I agree with Phoenix for the most part. First off, XP penalties are OOC penalties and therefore Player penalties. The justice system should be completely IC. If people break Server Rules, the DM's already have a system of punishment in place for that, plus it is an entirely different subject. So, when thinking of suitable punishments or laws, if anything is taken into account that your Character wouldn't understand (i.e. XP, Levels, server bugs, NPC, etc) then it is OOC and not applicable to an IC law or punishment. With that in mind, NPC's would have all the same rights and be subject to all the same laws/punishments as PC's would, because your character thinks NPC's are "real" people too. Therefore, if a law is decreed saying if you kill someone, you'll be imprisoned/killed/fined/whatever, then you will be punished for killing the beggar just as if you had killed Silentus.
Next up, the actual punishments? To begin with, I disagree with Phoenix a little bit on this point. I feel that punishments *should* sting, if only a little. Otherwise, where's the deterrent? Let us remember that punishments are supposed to be deterrents, not simply revenge. Having said that, I think that time served needs to be a little more than just 5 minutes. 5 minutes is a bathroom break. Sample discussion "Hey don't kill my friend or I'll get the guards!" "Oooooooh whoopty doo! The guards will come take me to jail for five WHOLE minutes! OOC: that'll be enough time for me to get a coke! hahahah l00z3r n00b!" Having witnessed variants of this discussion already, I think that jail time should range from 10-20 mins. Or perhaps to reflect the serious nature of murder the time should be 10 mins per murder. That should be a pretty hefty deterent to going on killing sprees. If someone kills 6 people and whines and cries about spending a real hour in jail for it, I have no sympathy. Don't want to do the time? Don't do the crime. If your character is evil or psychotic enough to murder 6 people at one go, sitting in a jail for awhile certainly won't kill them. Now, to backtrack on myself, I personally think anything more than 20 minutes is too much. 10 minutes is enough of a sting without being painful (for lesser crimes) and 20 minutes is painful enough to give people pause before becoming a murderer. Oh, and jail time is *NOT* a temporary server ban. You can still RP with people who come to see your character and with others in the jail. I would also like to see alternate ways of being able to escape the jail (i.e. picking locks, fighting through the guards, etc). I am completely opposed to 100% "escape proof" prisons. Even if the chances are slim, they should still be there.
Last of all, I must reiterate that before you can create a system to uphold laws, you must have laws to uphold. So far the only laws that exist are, don't murder..and ummmmm....don't steal? Yeah, I think that's it. Oh, and a knight's word is law. I remember Merrick saying that at one point also. These are, for the most part, incredibly vague, ill-enforced and widely ignored. So how about we all start with suggestions of appropriate laws, *then* we can talk about how best to enforce them. Otherwise, ignorance of the law won't be merely an excuse, but the norm.
**sidenote: LOL I just got a thoroughly evil idea from Avenger's post... If only we could code this muwahaha... Imagine a gallows in town square. When you are sentenced to death, you get hung. Your body hangs there for a set duration for all to see. You have the choice of either a) immediately respawning, losing xp and gold, but no playing time lost or b) hanging there for the full duration, after which you are immediately ressurrected and free to go. Heheheh man, I gotta figure out how to do that!

Your Tyrannical Neighborhood Shwabbaman

[Silentus]

I agree with Shwabba in that you should be punished more for killing me than Derto. Yous hsould be punished more for killing me than anyone else ;D

I think that XP reduction for RP killing is wrong - period. (for ooc PK I think it should be mandatory and steep though, with potential bans for repeat offenders - pretty much like now)

Knights make the law - Im fine with that if it comes from High King Merrick. Not saying it wont get ugly and many knights will have LARGE disputes, but the concept is sound from an RP side. Realize that those disputes will occur with MOST characters though.

Prison terms - I tend towads steep, but 10 minutes minimum (I would like to see at least 30 min - but I have no quams RPing from a prison cell and look forward to it actually)

Justice - There will not be justice as such with a simple system. Does it have to be just? Absolutley not.

[addicted2rpg]

I'm glad my basics struck a chord. I'm with Phoenix too on the raise thing. I was also thinking of making a flat footed condition where the person makes a reflex save or be jailed if the wand is used when they are knocked down. Dazed or confused is instant jailment. Dead on raise is instant jailment.

The exact time served isn't really a big deal. Just let us say "There will be a time served." Whether that is 5 minutes, 7 minutes, or 6 minutes and 23 seconds, can be worked out *later*

5000 xp penalties and level drops is way too rough. I know we got some hardcores here, but we want it to be fun, not to sting. Going to jail for killing the beggar may be a fun RP experience for the knight, but it should also be a fun RP experience for the killer.

Ditto on the differences between server rules vs. character laws. DM action is taken for serious offenses.

*One* thing that is up in the air is the resurrection of my forgotten, under-Americanized, non-politicaly correct slavery system. A player sent me a tell mentioning that perhaps if someone went to the slammer 7 or 8 times (again, the exact number of times can be changed *later*, assume "there is some number of times") where the character becomes enslaved and is teleported to Vrok's slave dungeon for purchase

Remember that slavery is escapable if a slave can persuade a good person to buy them and release them (Good aligned players cannot dominate slaves the way neutral and evil ones can; this is CODED in). One of the things I *DONT* like about this idea is a person can get into slavery without having to agree to all the terms and conditions of respectful RP and "opt-in." People might get tired of it. I would really have to talk to Makz and sample the player base a lot on this matter before continuing such a thing, but its an idea out there.

Historically, criminals were often forced to work as slaves, or even were deported as such (i.e., Austrailia *winks at Makz*) =-)

[Phoenix]

Acutally Shwabba we agree on punishment. What AvengersWraith's and Silentus (in the origional system) were overboard on punishment, mostly crossing the player vs. character line. I do want some punishment, and I do want it to have some sting, just not too much to deter all crime and take away from RP.

I don't think that 1 hour for killing 6 people is too much, nor is 10 minutes for one. It is enough of a deterrent to make me think twice. I think your right on the 5 minute thing, too short. Use the restroom, grab a snack/drink and your back in play. Maybe 5 minutes should be the scale though... 5 minutes for theft/incident X2 for murder... There should be some difference between murder and theft.

About laws, again I think your right. Gimme a list so I know whats what, even in less civilized times they had written law.

Make the knight the judge, jury, and executioner. Though if punishment really meant execution, I think something more formal would be warrented. Maybe that level is better left for later versions. I think we should focus on simple laws and simple punishment. It seems jailing is easy/make sense so lets aim for that.

The public gallows is a nice idea. What about a cell in the middle of town?

I'm all for SOME way to escape, even if it's hard. Maybe have guards (like the city ones) near the cell and attack anyone who breaks out, and have a high DC/bash on the door. That way someone could break out themselves, but they have to deal with the guard. Or someone could break in, deal with the guards, the pull a lever to let the person out. This will restrict lower level people form escaping at all (should be harder at lower levels) and still make it possible for higher levels to escape.

Edit: I havn't forgotten about your slavery system, I have plans to use it shortly. It might be interesting to mix the two, but what about characters capable of escaping slavery themselves? IE High level character is caught murdering/stealing one to many times and is put into slavery. They are VERY capable of escaping their chains, bare handed if need be, now what? Also, what good character would 'bail out' such characters out of slavery? I mean they have already commited multiple murders/thefts... Maybe their friends would, but then again who are they slaves too?

Edit2: I'm with you on the flat-footed reflex check, counts for the 'we just slapped the cuffs on you before you reacted.' It also doesn't require attacking someone (to kill them, to raise them in jail), giving a more civil option.

[addicted2rpg]

Remember that in a live environment, it is usually best to test a simple system first, and after people have been using it awhile, expand on it piece by piece.

It would be a shame to come up with a big cool system only to find out its very cornerstones don't make sense on a server like Fredian like we thought they would.

[Silentus]

Slavery for repeat offenders: I LOVE that idea providing that it is only an option if the PLAYER agrees to do it. That could be very unfun for some players while others would like it.

Gallows: I'm not sure, but this sounds like something not that might not be possible to do within the engine iteself.

Public jail cell: Again, great idea - although I think there should be a public one and a private one depending on the crime or possibly PLAYER (not character) preference.

There are some great ideas here. I will probably make a consolidation from this thread once it calms down and put together a few proposed systems from it. Then Iwill present those to Makz for initial review - then repost those acceptable to him along with polls.

Good work so far everyone, keep sending those opinions (thanks to Addicted for resurrecting the topic too.)

[Phoenix]

Isn't a character flagged once they agree to the slavery system? Why not have the system check that flag, if it's set and they are caught for the Nth time, they are slaves. If not, they are given the same spiel about slavery Vrok gives, if they agree, slaves, if not, jail. This would allow for both.

Public cell would probably be A LOT easier to script, and gets the same affect as gallows. But, if we could get gallows, wuhahahahaha. ;D Still a cell, say in W Styne, near the fire, would do nicely.

Maybe the cell you end up in depends on the time your serving. Short sentance=public cell, it's closer and humiliating, making the short sentance a little more painfull. Maybe it has an easier DC on pick/bash. Long sentance=Ranestadt, farther away, harder DC and guards (NPC). You could even switch it around, though a closer cell seems to make more sense for short term sentances...

[ride]

I am open to whatever is implemented (if anything at all... ) and will work with it or against it (depending on my mood and my PC... ), but I do have a few ideas to add (more fun RP oriented ones IMO)
When you get put in jail, all your stuff has to be taken away from you and put somewhere for possible later return to you. Your issued an orange robe (that limits certain abilities maybe, and it doesn't have to be orange, but some designating color would be nice, maybe something you can't remove easily either or something.....but it would have to be horribly ugly color that stands out, to "mark" you.)
If you serve out your time, your stuff is returned and the robe is removed. If you escape or are broken out whatever, you DO NOT get your stuff back and are forced to wear the robe until you can get somewhere where they can dye it for you or something......
I like the idea of increased "sentences" for repeat offenders, too, up to and including the slavery option.
Make Damien the warden, or make someone like him to be the warden, then there is the "possibility" of escape (if you can kill the warden, and break the lock/door.... whatever)

all my ideas of course depend on the coding complexity and willingness of our "fabulous fredian code monkeys" (C) (TM)

lol