Metagaming or RP?

[Ihavenofeet]

If a paladin wants to take CoT but doesnt follow the god would that be considered MG, or could it just be Champion of (Insert Deity Here)? i mean noone sees classes IG anyway right?

[MitzaVolchenko]

Generally that is not metagaming unless you are a Champion of Lolth or some equally absurdly evil deity...that makes you a blackguard

[Silentus]

I dont think anyone would bust you on that - I know I sure wouldnt... Especially in our realm where for the most part people try to find the local deity that best matches theirs... I dont know Torm or have a book handy here, but I would say it woldnt be a stretch to find a similar god.

[Phoenix]

Perfectly fine in my book. I mean the class doesn't determine the setting, it's the other way around. Sure Torm is in our setting, but not really. I mean we all came from different areas, so local gods make perfect sense, from any setting in IoF. Heck I saw someone connect a RP as a Roman soldier, I thought it was a great idea given 'how' we all got on the isle. So if you wanted to pray to Zues, that's fine IMO, our setting allows for it.

I always looked at Champion of Torm like Champion of(insert good god).

[Makzimia]

I guess my answer on this would be of some value I have no problem with it either, it is however not acceptable to be the Champion of the Devil for example . Other than that sort of thing, knock yourself out.

Makz.

[addicted2rpg]

Speaking of champion of the devil, I think I'll be one in this post. I will of course stand by whatever Makz decrees despite any devil-advocacy I may present here....

First, we have people who do roleplay but don't follow their alignments as strict as they should. Is this metagaming? Imho, no. If its just roleplaying.....

What this really comes down to is the age, age, age old discussion I have seen all over the place. Should levels be taken for RP's sake? Notice this question is a departure from PnP itself in a Neverwinter Nights environment. It's not the first. Perhaps I intend to RP as a CN and lets say I stick to it, but for purposes of building my character, I make it LG on the scorecard but I'm still staying to CN. Maybe I love the devil but I'm doing the CoT thing because whatever devil it is, it is some kind of devil that has a lot of AB and saving throws

Meta actually means "all-inclusive" (not joking, I have a domain name metafocus.net for a reason).

The term Metagaming has meant to take a part of one thing and combine it with something else unrelated. If you consider that people take classes just for RP (and some of you do.... shiver), then it is most definitely metagaming because you are taking one aspect and including it with another that is not consistent with the character in its entirety.

However, if you use a character's levels and skills independent of their RP persona, then it is not.

But before we answer that, lets think about consistency. If it goes for one thing, it has to go for everything, right? That, or we get really legalistic and make a huge outline of what counts and what doesn't. No thanks.

There are certain policies in effect by Fredian DMs that do not govern the umm.... precision or style... of roleplaying for various reasons, so long as it is loosely roleplaying. Even non-RP behavior is sanctioned as long as it does not fall into PK or excessive rudeness. When we start doing the metagaming examination thing is when someone gets killed over it, because there is that little clause about RPing out your kills, and if said "RP kill" was metagamed, then that is wrong. It is a mechanism to catch PK.

But if I take 40 levels of straight fighter, but stand around with a feathered cap reciting stories and poetry like a bard and no one gets killed over it, is this not a bad thing? Would such a person be in violation of "metagaming" ?

Perhaps metagaming[/i], but not Metagaming[/i]. The first is a style, the second means getting busted for ruining someone's fun.

Technically Nathaniel Hald is in violation. He has wizard levels only but his story in the Fredian forums is that of a bard that can't sing, exiled off the continent, landing mistakenly in Fredian. Of course, most people see that as a cover for a lot of other strange things that happen around him, and those bizarre wings he has but claims are fake, contrary to reports from people saying they saw him flying. Would you expect anything less from a Halaster voiceset? Of course, you shouldn't trust that Makzimia guy with those gray robes, I heard he's a fighter....
As for Lord Jansonat.... I'm not going there

[Silentus]

Violations are everwhere I am sure - VUgor has a couple levels of thief. Vugor who would never do a dishoest thing deliperatley as a rogue? Why? For the simple fact that its the best way to get alot of skill points. Vugor has extensive crafting under his belt and is more focused as a crafter than as a fighter. It makes good RP sence that he would be burning some levels of 'merchant' class - but there is none. Rouge is the closest I could think of. Is it tyechinically correct? No. Doest it make rational sence? I think so. For me it is usually a matter of intent - if you are trying to make it work in an RP fasion Im all for it. If it is outside the realm of reason (just a numbers thing) then I feel it is metagaming based behavior.

All that said - its all just a matter of good form. The only metagaming you really HAVE to concern yourselves with is thos in the Imp Info FAQ forum, all the rest you shoudl try to govern yourself on.

[Preedy1978]

Hmm...good points, but I think in game behaviour is more important than a characters build. Alignment too is another factor. For instance: A chaotic Evil Character is standing around talking to several people.....being friendly and polite. This is wrong...a CE character is a total loner, loony, and utterly Evil to the point of killing someone for bumping into him. A LE char. might get away with it, because he obeys the laws....but he may try to get a more subtle revenge later if he really was annoyed at someone.

That is my view on what really should be thought about....people who want to make an evil character, but dont want to be chased out of town, should *really* think about what alignment to be...you can be well behaved as an evil char, without going on killing sprees, but that CE alignment is really going to get you alienated rather quick, if you are playing proper to character, as they in general are *not* nice and well behaved people.

Behaviour on another matter...people switching characters to get revenge on someone who killed another of their own characters. I am totally against this in every way, and unless there is good RP reason for this, (which there usually isnt) then if i see it as a DM, I *will* jump on that person from a great height.

This is metagaming....people switching chars so they can get revenge on someone else....this is NOT RP...and PKing when NOT in RP is NOT allowed, unless taken to the arena.

Having said that, there are a few reasons that I can accept someone changing chars. in this way, for example, if they are getting harrassed, and no DM is around to help them. *sigh*

In the end it all boils down to behaviour. I'm not really too bothered about how a player builds his char. What I am bothered about is people playing good guys with an evil alignment, (Or visa versa) or someone abusing the rules like the example I have shown above.

We have good players here, who *know* how to RP their players consistantly and behave well. Unfortunately, its usually only the people that read these posts.

[AvengersWraith]

Alignment in D & D and NWN is only a tool to determine what a character can select for classes and for DMs to make sure they are living up to the ideals of the classes.

The Classes are only tools for use by the player and DMs to determine what a character can and cannot do.

They are loosely (very loosely) based on morals, ethics and values, but all of those are relative to individual outlooks. The death penalty can be construed as both lawful good or lawful evil, and many others; it is all in how people interpret it. Some say evil and against God's will, others say it is according to God's will, God condemns murder, not capital punishment.

Let's not delve to deep into interpretation, let's allow characters and DMs, who are fantasy versions of God, deal with interpretation on a case by case view.

Makz said no Paladin/Black Knight combinations, barbarians can grow into believing in law, rogues are not required to be evil and to steal, their skills can be used for furtherance of the law as a tracker or acquirerer of antiquities (I loved "Relic Hunter" when it was on and all three Indiana Jones' movies).

Paladins and Druids have, or had, abilities stripped in PnP if they changed their views or did not adequately portray the alignment they choose to obtain their classes. NWN does not strip abilities, but a DM could if they chose that alignment and behaviour is mandatory for keeping the chosen class abilities. Clerics who did not live up to their diety's ideals were denied spells, and progressively worse if they failed to get back inline; this too DMs could enforce if chosen, although NWN doesn't make it easy unless a DM is constantly monitoring that character.

Alignment and class descriptions are not meant to be nooses around a player, they are meant to be guidelines, and only moderate to severe diversion from those guidelines should cause a shift (or chronicly leaning over the line drawn by the guidelines).

[Phoenix]

a DM could if they chose that alignment and behaviour is mandatory for keeping the chosen class abilities. Clerics who did not live up to their diety's ideals were denied spells, and progressively worse if they failed to get back inline; this too DMs could enforce if chosen, although NWN doesn't make it easy unless a DM is constantly monitoring that character.

I wouldn't mind seeing some encouragment from the DMs if we were stepping out of alignment/class bounds. Just consider that there can be various motives for different alignments. Preddy said "A chaotic Evil Character is standing around talking to several people.....being friendly and polite. This is wrong...a CE character is a total loner, loony, and utterly Evil to the point of killing someone for bumping into him" and I think there is room for interpetation. CE might be polite, if it's a means to his end, it just wouldn't be the most desired method. But if it's necessary to do a greater evil, then so be it. Also Lonely and crazy seem more CN, not CE. CE is chaos with a purpose (evil), CN is more of choas w/o reason.

At any rate, a friendly "would a COT really do that?" or "umm, why is your BG trying to save XYZ?" If the characters have motivations within their alignment/class, they will answer easily. If they don't it'll at least make them think... Doesn't have to have teeth like docking XP or whatever, but reminders are nice.

[Preedy1978]

Good points Phoenix. I think its a matter of personal interpretation.

If i started spewing out all of my beliefs about alignments, we could have a major barny here from people disagreeing/ agreeing to my comments, so I'm stopping myself here

Phew! I hear you all cry!

[W(ie-ei)rdness]

Hmm, these discussions should be thrown into FAQ land.

[Silentus]

Heh, dont quite see how - no one has really agreed on alot. I am tring (desite my anal nature) not to officially post more than is nessacary reguarding play behavior. Just the big stuff - these are really minor points many of which we dont all agree on. And alignment issues - eesh, thats a whole board worth of discussion, not just a thread I actually responded to Preedy in PM about it, because I felt a need to reply, but didnt want to take this thread there as it will quicky dominate the thread much like weeds in a garden.

[W(ie-ei)rdness]

Maybe just say...

"This is yet another example of the alignment argument that will NEVER end! Hearken well fools!"

[Phoenix]

Preedy1978 said:

Good points Phoenix. I think its a matter of personal interpretation.

If i started spewing out all of my beliefs about alignments, we could have a major barny here from people disagreeing/ agreeing to my comments, so I'm stopping myself here

Phew! I hear you all cry!

Yes, we could argue till the end of days about alignment. But still, as a DM, don't feel afraid to question the motives of a player. Even if there is good RP reasons and you just don't see it. Just don't force alignment/classes down someone's throat and I'd bet they will learn something out of the discussion as well.