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Post by Makzimia on Mar 1, 2004 16:02:27 GMT
CJ and what you are proposing is entirely seperate and a future development that WE ( Nat and I ) are currently in the throws of nutting out, ie: social standing etc... this part cannot be left to player development sorry.
Makz.
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Post by Silentus on Mar 1, 2004 16:09:34 GMT
Ok, this is closed then I guess. I still have to say that I am a little unclear how CJ can be wholey a player responsibility when if we have no real authority in the matter.
:-/I am not trying to make your life difficult here Makz, but can you explain to me and the rest of those here how these roles layout in you mind so we can be clear on what should and shouldnt be pursued by us?
Thanks!
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Post by Phoenix on Mar 1, 2004 16:47:02 GMT
Makz, how would you suggest we deal with player-knight issues? I have seen more than one thing my character wouldn't just sit back and watch about the knights conduct, but what to do? Kill them, ok. done. But that doesn't change their conduct... It seems as long as the knights obey the server rules, they have nothing to fear, and don't, why should they? Am I missing something here?  |
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Post by Cella on Mar 1, 2004 16:55:44 GMT
Can I make a proposal...As Cella has recently been appointed Kings chief councillor, Can I propose that she chairs a peoples council in the short term until Makz sorts out the structure of things. She could then feed back any proposals for his deliberation.
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Post by Makzimia on Mar 1, 2004 17:09:06 GMT
I presume that toon as Merrick let everyone know about that Cella?  anyway, yes that works for me. Phoenix the knights of old stood for the kings front line of chivalry etc... except for the black knight of course in King Arthur... umm off topic.... anyway... the CJ was a way for you all IMO to state what you would accept as just punishment for crimes committed IC by your PC. That being in place there is room for movement obviously in some directions if something is not hard enough for example: IMO I would like to see a PC that reached execution permanently dead, but that is up to the players to decide. In the meantime Cella, take it to the people  Makz. |
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Post by Silentus on Mar 1, 2004 18:17:38 GMT
Sorry to have presumed to much Makz ----------------------------------------- Come back! Ill bite your legs off! |
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Hanah
Elder
Hanah Dedraluin<br>Kether<br>Verine Odama
Posts: 203
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Post by Hanah on Mar 1, 2004 18:43:01 GMT
On the topic of Cella (since the original topic seems to have been resolved here).... and of course this is all my OOC opinion...
Why would a woman who has proven herself to be either of poor judgement or sinister intent be appointed to king's council? Now let me qualify that statement: the actions I have seen from this character (let me consult my notes;-)) include an ill-advised attempt at espionage, various acts of golddigging, keeping secrets of dangerous things (ie the whole Keira amulet issue) and IMO a lack of stability. (Again, my perspective entirely here. Your milage may vary.) Considering the discussion in the Justice/Possession thread, the fact that Cella has been demon-possessed (or so we've been told;-)) is something else that ought to be considered here.
Now of course the answer to that question (why appoint Cella) is because.... the king wanted to. Isn't tyranny great? But even in a tyranny there are consequences for actions. There is no cosmic law stating that Merrick must be just, or wise, or even good at heart, but even if Merrick is a sinister figure this appointment ought to be a tipoff to those who have had dealings with Cella.
Characters who have not developed the perspective on Cella that Hanah has may view this appointment as nepotism and nothing more. Those of a more cynical viewpoint may wonder about the ramifications of captain of the knights and the king's council being an item. Those who need to adjust their tinfoil hats may see something wholly more concerning. In short, how will we all react to this appointment IC?
I'll repeat myself in case my original disclaimer has washed away: this is my OOC opinion and in no way a criticism of RP either by Cella or by Merrick. If the appointment of Cella was an OOC decision to enable that *player* to have a more direct voice in our governing, perhaps one would be well-advised to use a different character from that player, one who doesn't have so much of a history. Perhaps I overinflate the importance of this decision but I do see it as a bone of contention... it this were done for IC reasons, then I'm looking forward to the fallout;-)
Summary:
IMO if OOC - maybe consider a different char from that player for the role?
IMO if IC - let the revolution begin;-)
Hanah
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Post by Phoenix on Mar 1, 2004 19:07:51 GMT
Summary: IMO if OOC - maybe consider a different char from that player for the role? IMO if IC - let the revolution begin;-) Hanah Hanah, now you see the crux of the situation, but only 1/2. Let me explain, in character there is little recourse that is acceptable. I have spoken from Makz. about revolt plots and received a VERY stern warning, that the plot was not acceptable. I wanted to rock the boat with my plot, not get banned. But if you think the bad appointments stop there wait, just observe more. Look at our new knights Xilo and Aviar. Knightly isn't a word that comes to mind with these characters... So I kinda feel responsible here as I am one of the reasons this thread got started. My original frustration was, what does a character do about a corrupt knight? Now we can add councillor. Approach the king? Heck he seems to 'know' about me, why doesn't he 'know' about them. So it's obvious to me why, as Hanah pointed out. No one said the King was good, just, wise, smart, etc. So what do we do? Approach the king? I think he's just as dirty. Revolt against the king, that's a no-no. I have tried a few 'other' things with limited success, and I'm not stopping there. It just seems we are limited in our RPs due to their status. |
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Post by Makzimia on Mar 1, 2004 19:18:48 GMT
Umm no actually Phoenix attacking a Knight IC is fine, and that would be dealt with as normal, complaints can be made to the King about any wrong doing. Umm as far as banned goes? never said such a thing at all... I merely pointed out, that attacking the King, being what he is, you lose that PC in perma death. The idea of allowing Xilo and Aviar as knights was to spice things up you are within your rights to do something about that if they are wrong Also... in relation to Cella...  not an OOC appointment, let me put it that way her and Merrick have an RP thing going on between them... I am not sure of the details, but I am sure it will play out Makz. |
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Hanah
Elder
Hanah Dedraluin<br>Kether<br>Verine Odama
Posts: 203
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Post by Hanah on Mar 1, 2004 19:23:40 GMT
Phoenix, please don't tell me what I do and don't see:-) I have been thinking about this for quite some time and the appointment of Cella was what prompted me to post.
My understanding of the situation: the knights are chosen because their *players* are deemed to be able to handle the situation. Since a knight has to be level 40 and one would hope has some established history in Fredian that limits the options for a given player.
I can't say much about Xiloscient having not RP'd with him much but I really don't see a problem with Aviar's appointment. If anything he is (IMO) the 'bad cop' to Karl and Mack's 'good cops'. I'm really looking forward to seeing how that pans out IC. As far as OOC duties, I really can't think of anything to cast doubt on Radog's qualifications. *whistles* HEY! RADOG! Get yer butt over here;-)
In terms of responding to a possible tyrannical king: Hanah is a chaotic good. She just about got conscripted into the army on Sunday, that combined with a number of other things has firmly built an unfavourable image of Merrick in her mind. Rather than armed revolt, she is far more the type to pursue a passive resistance or even more likely, just totally ignore him, a 'live and let live' approach. These may not be acceptable to Phoenix's persona but there are other ways to deal with a tyrant other than armed revolt.
*If* Merrick is an oppressive or ill-informed ruler, what can we do to deal with that IC?
(I'm sorry Cartoonic, not meaning to pick on you here today really:-) You got Hanah typing that's all;-))
Hanah
.... sitting at the campfire singing Kumbayah
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Post by Phoenix on Mar 1, 2004 20:19:37 GMT
-er I don't think everything I was saying came out right.  Hanah, I'm not trying to say what you do and don't see, just that Cella isn't the only example, and I have explored this idea a little but found a dead end. I have RPed with both Xilo and Aviar and see plenty in thier characters that wouldn't be kosher if exposed. But that's all to be RPed out, I just want to know what we can and can't do. As far as attacking a knight, I know that's kosher, I have done it before, but to what end? OK, their dead, when they get raised/respawn, they are still the same character with the same issues. I have fought and killed one person several times, only to have the same issue brought up next time I see them (sometimes they remembered, sometimes they didn't). Makz. I never intended on attacking the king, I though I was clear about that. My plot involved revolting against martial law, not the king. When you mentioned removal of character due to that I got gun shy to several plot ideas involving the government of Styne. That's why I stay out of town, my character wouldn't deal with the knights attitude towards him. He's never been jailed, but is treated like a criminal. And now by knights who DO commit crimes, none the less. That's all fine and dandy to a point with my character. I mean I don't really care about corruption, but hypocrisy is different. He'd love nothing more than to snuff those people out of power in a heartbeat. I guess I'm still not clear what you didn't want me to do, and what you thought was acceptable. Which is why I'm not doing much about it. *scurries for cover under a rock* |
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Post by Spathic on Mar 1, 2004 22:36:27 GMT
there is already precedent for revolution and civil unrest... frost was viceroy for minutes before revolution was in the air (people actually spoke of rebellion in the king's chambers at the vote)
so uh yeah...
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Post by Preedy1978 on Mar 1, 2004 22:40:32 GMT
Woah...getting a bit heavy here! Let me explain the situation regarding the Knights a little, to your post first Phoenix.....
Knights, quite simply, are well...err..Knights!
Simply put, if you disrespect a Knight, it is going to be bad news for you...even when NOT under martial law.
An example for you: You go up to a cop in the street and start slating him down, then you decide to tell him that 'he/she' is corrupt and power hungry...whats going to happen there? Hmm...I think that the cop is going to get just a tad mad....in some cases arrest you on the spot. (I have seen this first hand)
Therefore, is it unreasonable to assume that Knights dont have personal feelings? They have the right to mete out justice, true, but they also have the right to respect in general, which i dont think they are seeing one bit. Dont get me wrong, as a player, it doesnt matter to me when ppl dont walk around with their heads bowing and scraping at Karl and calling him 'M'lord' everytime they see him, but what DOES get me frustrated as a player, is when people are totally disrespectful to a point of being rude and offensive to me as a Knight PC. Therefore, shouldnt the character responsible have to deal with the consequences of their actions? To be fair, i think i have RP'd Karl a bit too soft in that respect, but even he snaps now once in a while (look at all the new posts, reagrding the execution of Chickaroo, and the subsequent melee afterwards).
So, as a Knight...I either let people walk all over me, and say what they want (I.e: Hey Knight! You power hungry useless waist of time! I could do a better job than you! Your momma!) or i can give them punishment for this. Either by jail, or by a good old fashioned beat down. Because really....would a RL cop take abuse like that? Or would he get angry? Hmm...
Thats MY standpoint....if you were regarding something else entirely Phoenix, then I'm sorry I put you and everyone else through my litle rant. (heh) I feel that I play karl as best as I can as a Knight, and I dont deliberatly try to make him out as Tyranical. (I mean Karl as a Tyrant! Sheesh! gimme a break! lol)
In regards to your posts hanah...Lets just wait and see what happens here...I havent got a clue what the IC reasons were/are, but i think thats up to us to find out IC isnt it?
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Hanah
Elder
Hanah Dedraluin<br>Kether<br>Verine Odama
Posts: 203
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Post by Hanah on Mar 1, 2004 22:53:38 GMT
Good points all preedy. The thought of knights being these paragons of patience and virtue is a bit much IMO... you guys are human/elven/dwarven/whatever and subject to bad moods, poor judgement, confusion and manipulation. The analogy of a real world police officer is particularly relevant IMO. Alternatively, those who like to natter at the knights IC may want to mentally place themselves in the shoes of said knight before they decide whether the knight reacted inappropriately.
And about the Cella appointment... I just wanted to clarify whether this was an IC or OOC appointment for the sake of my own poor brain:-) Coping with it IC isn't an issue for me, and I'm hoping that other characters will be able to act and react IC to this as well. To bring up an example that's been discussed recently here, when Frost was appointed viceroy it was microseconds before people were fussing (and mostly fussing OOC if you ask me but that's just my opinion).
Hanah
... darnit that GS thread has me itching to make a nurse's uniform
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Post by Cella on Mar 1, 2004 23:01:11 GMT
"Why would a woman who has proven herself to be either of poor judgement or sinister intent be appointed to king's council? Now let me qualify that statement: the actions I have seen from this character (let me consult my notes;-)) include an ill-advised attempt at espionage, various acts of golddigging, keeping secrets of dangerous things (ie the whole Keira amulet issue) and IMO a lack of stability. (Again, my perspective entirely here. Your milage may vary.) Considering the discussion in the Justice/Possession thread, the fact that Cella has been demon-possessed (or so we've been told;-)) is something else that ought to be considered here."
Hanah, You'll be hearing from my Lawyer.... Can't a woman have second chance.....I'll get you for this!
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anyway, yes that works for me. Phoenix the knights of old stood for the kings front line of chivalry etc... except for the black knight of course in King Arthur... umm off topic.... anyway... the CJ was a way for you all IMO to state what you would accept as just punishment for crimes committed IC by your PC. That being in place there is room for movement obviously in some directions if something is not hard enough for example: IMO I would like to see a PC that reached execution permanently dead, but that is up to the players to decide. In the meantime Cella, take it to the people 
not an OOC appointment, let me put it that way 
