*sigh* Life, death, knights, and of course, Martia

[Preedy1978]

Ok, Ive just had a rather harrowing experience online with fredian and im not too chuffed.

basically boils down to an argument between One character, and 3 chars on the other side, who were goading him, waiting for him to snap.

I enter the scene as Karl, and see them do this, all the while, the single fella is getting more and more irate. I can see this and tell them to stand down, and or leave.

After a few lines of "i go where i please" and: "I am doing nothing wrong" I realise that this is going downhill big time. I like to think that I am pretty restrained and sensible about RP, but this was chaos, and nobody would listen to Karl...a so called 'Knight'

So eventually, they goad him some more and the fella loses it and slays one of the goading characters. Now dont get me wrong, Im all for RP, but goading someone who is vastly more powerful is not smart RP is it? It seems that the characters dont care if they die...cos they know that re-spawning in the temple is so cheap.

By now a crowd has arrived, and they start baying for the killers blood.
Meanwhile, back IRL im sitting in my chair with my head in my hands thinking this is all wrong!

I explained to them that if they had not continued to goad the fellow, then he wouldnt have died, they start hurling abuse at me!!
( I realise that murder WAS commited, but the in my view the person who did it was MORE THAN JUSTIFIED TO DO SO, and so i did nothing.)

For one thing, as a knight, we only stroll around ordering fellows around as an RP element...something that EVERYONE is supposed to enjoy, but from where i sit, they get no respect or understanding.

Martial law is in place at this time, and basically, it means anyone speaking out against King Wend, or causing any kind of disturbance is to be killed on sight. Well, thats simple isnt it? So why cant people seem to understand this? It doesnt sound fair, but hey, Makz tried a viceroy out and look where that got him.

So, all you people who whine about justice IC and even OOC...its martial law...until something else comes out, deal with it.

(I do have to say a BIG sorry to a certain MR. Phoenix however..you DID play a good role there, and i was hoodwinked into attacking you...Mes sowwy!!)

[Preedy1978]

Oh, and the title should read martial law at the end not martia lol

[Valen]

Well..

From what I saw...(Valen)

True enough those 3 individuals did do this..however..that was by design it seemed. Now if the person on the recieving end was manipulated into reacting a certain way ...thats there own fought they should have just walked away. Now as a Knight I would think that your duty would be to take over the situation using the minimum amount of force required as soon as you sensed that it was going down hill. You are suppose to represent the the King and his laws..... If weapons were blazing, at the point you shouldve dealt with on the level that it required, regardless of who the person was. Who ever is entrusted with representing the king has to do so unconditionally. If that means you have to deal with your friends in an ill fashion to do your job..then so be it...if its your enemy then thats easy, but it has to be the same across the board.....Now from my stand point--> True the one you speak of was taunted into fighting but he could've left the area...and you could have iced the situation before it got to that point. It didnt happen that way and there was bloodshed and death ...but the real question is....who was really guilty here? ;D

In regards to the Knights not getting respect...

I think they do...when ever theres trouble people always look to the Knights and Paladins for aid..but people also see that these knights are plagued by emotions that sometimes influence there judgement when dealing with the people they like....

Which makes them corrupt ........................................

This is what I see and hear anyways, ...so im calling them like I see them...

[MysaidesCaldier]

Let me give you my famous skinny on the subject. First off half the problem that the guards are great in times of a attack but when they are not defending the town from drow. They are promoting their's and their associates agendas. And yes that makes them extremely corrupt. Now first off any char that would be goaded into battle in my opinion is first off a danger to a community and law and order, and is at fault just like the people who taunted him. According to a purely legal perspective a disturbance would of occured not when the tainting was going on but when the first hostile action was being made, and the char making such a move would be in violation of martial law and be subject to punishment by the king. Furthermore if you are being taunted to battle why not give them something they will hate instead of the classic "I will brain thee response". Perhaps try to beat them at their own game instead of always resorting to brute force. As for the people goading well let me say this if you are looking for a fight, a "special" friend of the guards is not a good target to goad. You are the only one who is going to end up in jail.(which I might add is not as bad as it seems I have been there 5 time now and I have to say all my stays were lovely) Trust me I am speaking from personal expirience when I say yes as of now if you mess with any of "regime" (you know the group I am talking about) be sure you can get away because, yes, you will be locked up and you will be hunted and you will be look on as the offender. The office of guard has about as much respectablity as a overbearing cop who just wrote you a ticket for illegally crossing the street. Get over it and live with it thats your job. You did not become a public servant to make friends and have people suck up to you all day.You actually took the job to help promote unbiased justice. You took the position of keeping law and order not protecting all who call you Sir Knight and are willing to tell you how wonderful you are. You Styne guards have a luxury, to turn a blind eye when you want, and pound away with your weapons when it suits you. Thats one of those perks of power deal with the fact that alot of people will resent that and give you even less respect ;D

[Cella]

The one saving grace amongst all this concern over RP Guards powers is, that in a lot of situations in real life where Martial law is invoked, it normally contains corruption and power crazy situations amongst the guards anyway.

So I actually think it is all running pretty smoothly.

regards

Cella (Macs aquaintance ;-) enjoying the benefits of his position, but concerned when it changes)

[JoScMa]

Here's my take. See, they wanted to provoke Frost into killing them to get Frost in trouble. It wasn't one single insult. They were constantly harassing Frost because they knew he wasn't going to last.

As for the RP aspect, Mac has no sympathy, respect, or trust for Sir Damien (for multiple murders and lies, not to mention Cyric), and the same goes for Phoenix (hey, who would trust a guy who tried to kill ya several times, albeit failing miserably). Mac also told them to quit taunting Frost several times, yet they did not listen.

[MysaidesCaldier]

Maybe that's half the problem, Mack, that you should let your friends fight their own battles without interference from you and the rest of your brethren. Well, like I said before, the person who broke the King's peace was the person who drew the first blood, NOT the PC engaging in verbal assault which, DM-slander excluded, is permissable in Fredian. Also, I am somewhat amused by the excuses some will make for others. If someone is provoking you, and you decide to reciprocate by doing something that break's the King's law, well, you just chose ONE option out of many to solve the problem and, according to DM's rule, it is illegal and should be punishable by incarceration. Try logging Or, option two, verbally assault them back. I am sorry if I am a bit slow but correct me if I am wrong: ALL PLAY STYLES ARE ALLOWED IN FREDIAN, and it is not against the law to speak, whether your words are complimentary or insulting. It is against the law, however, to kill in West Stynne. So, my question still remains: If I wish to commit PK's in West Stynne, do I first need to befriend the guards? ;D

[Preedy1978]

I think Mys has hit the nail on the head....

Now that i have slept and am more awake..(heh..it was 6am when i wrote the 1st post, and i hadnt slept)...I can see some of my own ramblings on and realise that Mys and Valen have some good points. I totally agree with Valen in saying that Knights are supposed to be restrained in dealing with such...but JoScMa has hit the nail on the head for the situation...it was anarchy, and the goading had been going on for some time. As for siding with the people that he (Karl) knows, well yes, that's true, but thats like RL as well.

As for the corrupting side of Knights/Guards, Mys, i like the idea of it, but i think Makz would actually wring my neck or any other knight that tried it!


As for the OOC aspect, I'm not gonna whine so hard in future...

[Phoenix]

Preedy1978, no problem.

From my point of view here's what happened. I walk outside from getting drunk in the bar. Frost runs up to me weapons drawn claiming I'm starting some conspiracy, gathering folks against him. I basically talk my way out of it, denying everything, but not really escalating things. Shortly later I walk over to the fire, Frost is being taunted by three others. I sit back and watch. Some other character (just met you sorry bad with names ) 'draws his bow' so I step in his face and ask him to back off, all the while these 3 continue taunting Frost. So I ask if words are worth blades, something I ask a lot around the lands, because it seems they are. Eventually Frost kills the guy, he probably deserved it, however Frost did murder him. Right in front of Karl. Being me, I demand Frost be arrested, after some discussion Karl says no. Because he was taunted into it.

Now this guy with the bow attack one of the 3 people who were taunting Frost. 2 of them are killed. I'm friends with these guys. So now all three have died, all murdered, non of them attacked anyone. So I lay waste to this guy with a bow, prooving a point to be made later. Karl kills me. Im raised and make my roll. I'm furious, the 'knight' just allowed triple murder, but when their more powerful friend steps in and attacks he's breaking the law. So I see Karl as totally corrupt (no problem with that, btw), so I figure I can spin this into is reporting Karl, maybe getting him removed from duty. By this time Mack is around, he got there towards the end. So I approach him, give him my report and demand action. He basically blows me off, why not I have tried to kill him, regardless of what/where/why. So at this point I'm painted into a corner with my character.

Everyone say's 'they' and I know they mean my character, but in all reality the only thing I did to Frost, heck in the last week, is call him Frosty. Please be carefull grouping me into 'they', though these guys were my friends I wasn't taunting anyone in the incident here. Heck I had been involved in enough PvP at that point yesterday all I really wanted to do was RP.

[ride]

Like sands thru the hourglass.... oh wait, wrong thing....

we vote them off the island....?

um...

lol

no, in all seriousness The knights should never even be able to be goaded into attacking someone _no matter what_, think of the beefeaters (u know those guys at buckminster palace) that don't move or talk at their posts, but if they are needed, for a real situation, watch the hell out.

A "jail wand" (from some other posts) would have been a good idea in this situation and might have prevented all this, instead of attacking, just hit them with the wand... bye bye

rise above ppl, rise above.



Next time Karl, just demand shrubberies and say "NEEEE" over and over

[Serion]

I think that since my character Lucifer Deathspark started this whole situation, I can at least make some sort of a comment on the situation. Initially Frost had threatened Phoenix because Frost thought that there was a plot against him (There may or may not be, that's for me to know and you to find out). I ran up to defend Phoenix, and told Frost to leave him alone. The situation toned down for a bit, until a while later...

The one thing that most of you guys are mistaken about is that I taunted Frost into killing me. NO!. I merely called him a fool for acting on emotions and anger. When I called him a fool, he told me "Now you die". I believe Karl was next to Frost at the time and was asking everyone to stop. Phoenix was preventing Jurdo (toon's char) from putting and arrow through me head. Then I believe it was Karl that told me to shut my trap, but I replied by saying I was protected by the law because I was not threatening anyone (Martial law doesn't restrict you to call someone a fool), and that I was doing nothing wrong. Then Jurdo threatened that he would put an arrow through my head.

I turned around to Jurdo and told him that he is not involved in the situation and to stay out of it. Then he attacks me and kills me without provocation (I did not have any weapons or shields out). Phoenix then kills Jurdo to avenge my death, then I believe Karl strikes down Jurdo. Once I, Phoenix, and Jurdo are raised, Frost turns around and says something like "Law or no law, I'm going to kill you all" and then I told him to bring it, and I had no weapons out (A bit of evil RP on my side to try and get him into trouble). He first attacks me and kills me in front of Karl, then he kills Phoenix, and then he kills Sir Damien. All the while Archon (A good PC) is demanding that Karl arrest Frost for murdering 3 chars who did not have any weapons out and did not attack him.

Since Karl was not doing anything, Archon attacked Frost to try to impede his murderous onslaught (while Frost was attacking Phoenix I believe). Then Mala and Frost attack Archon and kill her. Mackenzie was there at the time and was not doing anything to stop Frost's rampage. Mackenzie asked Karl what happened, Karl obviously being Frost's friend was saying we were taunting him and we deserved to die (Last time I checked no matter how much I taunt someone, if he kills 4 people, he does not go unpunished under martial law). Then Mackenzie asks Karl's girlfriend, Mala, to second Karl's testimony (A bit of a shady verification, no?).

When all is said and done, Frost threatened me with death because I called him a fool for acting on emotions and anger. There was no taunting here. I did not threaten him with bodily harm in any way, so his murder was not justified. As for the knights, I understand that Frost is your friend, but knights are supposed to be unbiased in their acts of justice and policing. This obviously did not happen, whether it be for OOC or IC reasons.

P.S. Phoenix DEFINITELY did not deserve to be murdered by Frost, he had nothing to do with the situation except for preventing Jurdo from putting an arrow through my head.

[Valen]

Lets try and keep the plots out of this, although all these things did happen (regard murder and corruption ), I dont think it warrants plots to be exposed It was rp out well ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Theres more to this than meets the eye

[sniven]

Ok first off people this is the time of Knights and dragons with a town under martial law thats attacked daily in this day and age freedom of speech is the dumbest thing i ever heard of we have no such constitution if you insulted a man. You needed to understand that you could very well be killed no one ever heard of a duel so lets make it plain want to talk the talk then be ready to defend yourself. Murder is when i sneak up you arent looking an unarmed and i kill you pemanently. Its more like aggravated assault here in fredian.

As for some of your pcs i know you arent playing a character with a temper ( or honor) so dont react in a violent manner but i play frost as if his name and honor mean something and if you want to walk up to a pc that we all know can stomp you character into the earth not just frost but any of them dont expect them to run in the corner and cry about it. Expect things to happen its all in rp you dont go out slaying dragons and drow for a first lvl pc to mock you when you return.

I mean really people have died for indescretions for hundreds of years.. yes over words so choose them wisely and if frost must go to jail then so be it hopefully you characters that know no fear or feel no pain will at least tire of dying and talk when hes not around.

heh Sniven

PS be nice if someone could plot against frost and not have him learn about it.

[MitzaVolchenko]

Ooooh! And the story still isn't right! I re-read my log of events to see who killed who (I wasn't sure if Karl or Mala killed Phoenix). The fact is that it went bad when nobody would stand down to the present authority (Mack and Karl). Frost backed down a few times before it came to blows.

I think what we have run into here is something that I run into with LARP's. We have an OOC rule about not abusing new players and/or new characters. You don't kill the visiting player's PC unless they refuse to stand down. However, if the unacknowledged fledgling vampire insists on insulting the Prince repeatedly, he is asking for it.

There is definitely a lax attitude from some regarding PC death. If we are looking for a feudal feeling, then people have to stop playing their characters like there ever was a a Magna Charta or Declaration of Independence. think more along the lines of Code of Hamurabi. The thief loses his hand, the fool his head. Feudal justice, isn't...nor should it be...think of it as benevolent dictatorship.

Personally, I enjoyed the RP but not the ((whine complain)).

[kline]

OK OK this is to much mes can not take it anymore. There are things going on that noone understands right now.
Law hahahaha whatever my character could care less if a Dwarf or a paladin or a knight or anyone else gets in my face. I am lead by a higher power. Your laws mean nothing to him, if his god says do this he will.
You want all the crazy things to stop happening all the time OK then this is the plain. The good people are getting to crazy around these lands, they force the evil people from places used to train and they force us from the towns and they make it very hard for us to just relax, darn. Give us a break every once and a while, please. We need a town period. We also need more than two training areas everyone goes to the Crypts to train. I have seen that the good people are makeing it to where the evil ones can not train there. If you think this is not going to start a war you are mistaken. There is not another place to train at certain level because of the invisible stalker lag-out bug. Everyone knows this.
OK there is my gripe I feel so much better I got this off my chest.
Signed Getty the Gnome

Remember evil will win because good is dumb.