Use of Lasso in PvP

[Phoenix]

Got a question for you. Do you think the use of the lasso is fair in the middle of a PvP fight?

Ex. larger scale fight, maybe 5 on 5, with some/all of one team being knights. During a 'normal' fight people would get killed and raised, possibly several times, before the conflict it resolved. However, add in the use of a the lasso and as soon as one of the non-lasso wielding dies the knights can lasso the dead body, when that person is raised they go to jail.

This sorely unbalances PvP fights. I mean the battle isn't even finished, but the opposing team is losing members, where the knights raise their dead. So eventually it's 4 on 5, then 3 on 5, now (even if it was possible before) the knights are nearly guaranteed victory over time.

But wait it -could- be much worse. Imagine a 8 on 4 fight (4 knights/people with knights). They are going to lose right? Maybe not, focus on one person, kill them, and lasso. Now it's 7 on 4, odds are getting better. Rise and repeat 4 defeats 8. Probablly every time. Heck it took 6+ people to take down Mack the other day. It's hard enough without losing your allies in the MIDDLE of combat. There just seem 0 RP use to this, the lasso transporting people to the jail was a convience thing (I thought) not a teleport people out of battle so you can win the fight.

I think you should lasso everyone, once they are all dead or have fleed, but NOT while battle rages. I don't really care about sitting in jail, IF you win. Do you knights really want to be invinsible?? If you reach that point, what do you think will happen to the good-evil fight? This is something I warned about from the onset of the CJ system.

We all know it's darn near impossible to kill 40th level characters, so quite frankly I see this tactic as being totally unncessary on top of the reasons I mention above.

What are your thoughts on the use of the lasso during combat to affect the result of the PvP fight?

[AvengersWraith]

What you need to ask is if Nat can add a check that prohibits the use of the lasso while the user is in combat. Then, as long as 1 of the agressors is keeping that knight busy, he cannot use the lasso. But if no agressors are keeping that knight occupied, then he can use the lasso.

The knights are not a party of adventurers, if a single knight is not kept busy, he can use his magical aids provided to him for protecting West Styne to make an agressor permanently unable to join a fight. This would mean the agressors must always make sure someone is keeping every knight in combat. Think of it as a knight cuffing and shackling the downed character and one of the NPC gaurds running him to the jail so the knight can rejoin the fight.

During the meantime ask the knights to keep the above scenario in mind as a guideline when the town is under attack, and yes, I do believe that when people are attacking the knights they are attacking the town.

Also make sure all the agressors know they must not respawn during a battle in town, they must wait for a comrade to raise or res them or be sent to jail. If they wish to abandon the fight they must be alive to do so or have done their time in jail.

These are suggestions, I am far from being the ruler of course.

[addicted2rpg]

Avengerwraith's idea is possible. I can make the lasso that way. But before I would, I want to make sure:

Do we want to make the lasso this way?

I think you guys should have a forum deathmatch about it. Part of the way it is because of the "calf-roping" example I read about once in "Should a timestopped user be ropeable?" NWN doesn't remove "combat" until a good while after the last thing has been killed anyway, and someone is in "combat" if a party member is fighting even though the knight himself is not fighting.

But anyway, that is all just fluff So why are we having PvP fights? Let me guess, its Phoenix + friends against Knights + friends?

Perhaps I can add this adjustment to the lasso, but then that makes it look maybe the bad guys can kill all the guards, the knights, and run off with the late King Wayne's crown. Not a bad RP thread, either. Until it runs itself three times a day. Perhaps I can allow the lasso to invoke Damien Swift to come forth and fight for them once per day . Speaking of which, he was designed for the SoU generation more than the epic one. Time to have that boy upgraded.....

Har har har.... well, I'm just musing. You won't see DS on the surface mainly because if he goes out of control, he goes all-out out of control

I don't know. I want to hear more about it. What would be reasons for making the lasso this way, what would be reasons against?

[Phoenix]

addicted2rpg said:

But anyway, that is all just fluff So why are we having PvP fights? Let me guess, its Phoenix + friends against Knights + friends?

If anyone wants to see a change in my RPs let me know, I'll consider anything. I -try- to make sure every time I cast a spell there is RP behind it. When I joined I saw lots of do-gooders and disjoined evil types. That's why I play my character the way I do, variety is the spice of life. I've been kicking around the idea of playing a very good type, maybe Phoenix is getting stale...

addicted2rpg said:

...but then that makes it look maybe the bad guys can kill all the guards, the knights, and run off with the late King Wayne's crown.

Well take the king's crown out of the scenario and it's still not happening. If we want the knights to be invinsible (they almost are w/o the lasso, but at least it's a level field), have them log as DM, or give them items to make them that way. I though of the lasso as a RP tool, not a PvP tool. The current tactic being used is unbalaning. If the knights win the battle, jail everyone. If they lose, they lose. What's wrong with a scenario when the knights end up dead on the ground? Heck, why shouldn't that be possible?

The ex. about how the knight's allies are still in combat... Well, just who do you think they are combatting? The dead person's allies that are/may raise them. The example that started this a person was dead on the ground for about a round before they were raised. When they were, to the jail they went. 1rd=6sec., and people though 9 (time stop) was too short...

Also, what's the range on the lasso?

edit: I don't think a scripted change would be necessary, can't the knights look around and see if all their attackers are dead?

[addicted2rpg]

*ALL* very good points Phoenix.

I wouldn't want to see the lasso used in the Arena, for example, but then again, perhaps the lasso could be viewed as an addendum to their class. Subraces get stat bonuses. Wizards cast spells. Knights have lassos.

But then, to take your side this time, we have to ask ourselves: Do we want knights to have this addition as though it was a class ability? There could be arguments for and against, and the balancing of the lasso itself.

Perhaps the knights will be chaps and just not use it until everyone on the screen is dead.

Good stuff. Yep, yep.

One thing you do bring up is this raising business. I feel very reluctant to recommend something horrible like taking raise scrolls out (ouch!). However, perhaps I should add a little widget into the scripts (if Makz approves it) that will limit the frequency a person can be raised. I like two minutes. I don't mean a person has to lie dead for two minutes. I mean if I die, get raised, I fight for about 45 more seconds and die again, I will have to wait a 1 minute and 15 seconds to get raised again. If I fight for 2 minutes or more and die again, I do not have to wait. The idea is to prevent dying 10 times in 10 minutes. Do I hear dice rolling???

hmm, auto-roll on raise.

[Preedy1978]

Hmm....this would make the lasso virtually useless...I use it to break up fights before they finish...doing a script change to it in this way would not allow me or any other knights to break up the fight.

The rope has a dc check, and whilst we are using it, people can get there digs in if they want.

IMO, the lasso needs tuning UP rather than down, the DC is variable, and can range from 24 (easy to avoid) to 40 (Quite tough to avoid). people under the affect of sanc are immune to this as well. So...it already has limits.

Knights in general follow the law, so will not start PvP in any Styne areas, unless provoked. Also, they wont use the lasso out of their juristiction, any who do (i know i dont) are breaking the law themselves!

The idea of the lasso, i thought, was to be as much of an RP detterant to would-be troublemakers, as well as a jailing tool for proven criminals.

If the lasso is changed in this way, or nerfed anymore, would it really be a deterrant? All someone would have to do is start a fight with the knight for 1 round to stop the lasso from working, then run away.....the lasso wouldnt work then because end of combat in NWN isnt instantanious.

The lasso's range is also quite limited, a knight has to be reasonably close to use it.

As for PvP rules of engagement for the use of the lasso...gimme a break! Next thing why dont we say ban the use of the harm spell...thats way unbalancing when a lvl20 cleric can take down a lvl40 Knight with the use of it, then a simple follow up.

Pfeh...i dont mean that, but you see my point.

IMO...the lasso is fine Nath...its a detterant..as it was SUPPOSED to be...if people want to beat up on knights, then maybe they should do it out of their juristiction.

[MitzaVolchenko]

I am on the leave the lasso alone and/or make it harder to avoid side on this one.
Nothing is funnier than watching the great Knights impotently waving their lassoes at someone!

*hums the theme from Bonanza*

[Xiloscient]

Well I haven't had to use my lasso in alot of PvP as of yet.. but when I have .. it has been more of a penalty to me the knight.. then the criminals I was trying to use it against.. I just happened to have it is querry mode.. when a brawl broke out in West Styne.. when the other 3 knights were chasing after another criminal..
So it was myself and Ventrick against three over level 40's who were just killing people for no reason. I would kill one of them.. or Ventrick would.. then the others would just raise them.. I kept playin with the lasso ((Standing around like and idiot)) To try to jail someone before they got raised.. but one of the other 2 would run up and try to hit me for a second so I was back in combat. Well anyways.. once I did get it to jail someone. The dc is like 20 and so I'm standing around like an idiot even more after I "tied up" the criminals just hoping they roll a 1. There is more.. but btw.. all three of them got away.
The way makzimia has the items.. and all the immunities.. ect. You can have char's immune to quite literally.. everything.. ((Xilo is accualy)) And so for the good vs. evil thing... evil has a HUGE advantage.. becuase they can just roll into town.. lay off a hellball ((like getty has in many occasion)) And then run... evil did what it wanted to do.. but to accualy get the good guys to accomplish there goal and get the criminal.. the Evil guy has to accually decide to stand his ground and fight... With all the immunities and diety like chars can get on this server ((which is fine by me.. makz choice)) Evil guys just cannot be caught.. plain and simple.... so IMO lasso should be beefed up so that is West styne is assaulted it is almost garanteed that Good wins... Evil should stay in the desert.. and good should stay in west styne.. its not like the nights EVER go into the desert to catch someone.. Becuase as it stands.. evil can harrase anyone they like.. without a worry in the world.

So as long as the lasso isen't used in places other then like styne.. ((Which as far as I know it isn't)) lasso needs to get a big buff up.

[Hanah]

Xiloscient said:

And so for the good vs. evil thing... evil has a HUGE advantage.. becuase they can just roll into town.. lay off a hellball ((like getty has in many occasion)) And then run... evil did what it wanted to do..

*cough* Evil needs a hobby.... might I recommend embroidery? I've always found it a good way to relax:-p

But in all seriousness, evil folks, if you had an *easy* time of running around and doing whatever the hell it is you do, you would get bored. Were there no knights trying to arrest you and no do-gooders trying to stomp you on sight, what exactly would be the point? I find no problem logically or RP-wise for a knight to try to apprehend a suspect *during* a fight. After all this would be an act of mercy... you didn't get killed, you just got slapped around a bit. So IMO a buff on the lasso for accuracy probably wouldn't be a bad thing in the long run...

The knights have put up with a lot of IC verbal abuse from the roleplayers among us and a lot of OOC abuse from the clowns among us. Letting them do their job both IC and OOC makes for a more stable Fredian environment IMO. So again, thanks guys for being patient!

Hanah
... where'd I put my threadsnip

[Phoenix]

"perhaps the lasso could be viewed as an addendum to their class. Subraces get stat bonuses. Wizards cast spells. Knights have lassos."
Knigts are not a class. They are not fighters, paladins, or anything like that. It's a status given by the king, and has nothing to do with class. Look at Avair, he's definatly a wizard and has the lasso.

"Do we want knights to have this addition as though it was a class ability? There could be arguments for and against, and the balancing of the lasso itself."
Again, it's not class specific, so by it's nature it is unbalancing. There are the haves and the have nots, but it was never meant as a "new weapon" but a role play tool.

"Perhaps the knights will be chaps and just not use it until everyone on the screen is dead."
Thats what I'm asking, use it before a fight starts to arrest someone or after a fight when their dead. Use your class and abilities to determine the result of the combat, once it starts.

About raising, I wouldn't want any changes there. If you do make changes please remember that there is a subrace bug where you have to ressurect, not raise.

"this would make the lasso virtually useless..."
Not at all you can use it to arrest people before and after a fight, just not during.

"doing a script change to it in this way would not allow me or any other knights to break up the fight."
I'm not necessarly asking for that, you can tell if battle is still going on...

"The idea of the lasso, i thought, was to be as much of an RP detterant to would-be troublemakers, as well as a jailing tool for proven criminals."
It was, but by using it in combat/PvP your making it a new weapon.

"As for PvP rules of engagement for the use of the lasso...gimme a break!"
Do you not see how this unbalances things in your favor? So if we, as players, are asking for rules of engagement please be willing to listen.

"Next thing why dont we say ban the use of the harm spell...thats way unbalancing when a lvl20 cleric can take down a lvl40 Knight with the use of it, then a simple follow up."
The lasso isn't class specific as I mentioned. What if you has a knight that was a cleric? Now they have harm and the lasso! The class balancing issue of harm is better left for another topic, I want to discuss the lasso only to keep the thread from going off topic.

"Evil guys just cannot be caught.. plain and simple"
I call major BS here. I have yet to see one attempt by the knights to get together and actually hunt me or my friends. Sure, if they see us it's a chase. But I have never seen them leave Styne, in a party, and go get someone. Just like evil can walk into town and lay waste and run, why? We go there and get them.

"But in all seriousness, evil folks, if you had an *easy* time of running around and doing whatever the hell it is you do, you would get bored."
Well of course, I'm not advocating making things easy, nor are they. When we plan to take out a knight or something we need overwhelming numbers. We gather, plan, plot, bait, attack, nothing easy about that, and that was just one knight... As far as a hobby, evil has lots of RPs going on now, find a hook and dig in. Getty didn't get extra crazy overnight, he does have a reason he's attacking...

BTW, I think cartoonic got me sick too dammit! Any rambelings in this post should be glossed over.

edit: oh, yeah the DC could be a hair higher.

[Silentus]

I say pump it up a little if anything. I would like to see it stronger, but would encourage Knights to decide to use it as sparingly as possible. I believe the knights should have the tools to catch the bad guys (or non-lawful good guys too - not an alignment statement). As always, I just want them to have someone to have to answer to if they act with conduct unbecoming a Knight - but that is a different argument...

[AvengersWraith]

I forgot who Fal told, but Cella is currently in charge of taking issues to King Wend. As he told the person, put it in writing, use that tool.

Then during council meetings you can ask if your message was delivered to the king.

Try and have witnesses around when you give the message to Cella to take to the king if you think she will not do her job, especially if you think it may affect Mack, the knight in question when Fal gave his advice about writing the message out for Cella to take.

Having problems with knights and you think they are unjustified, attend council meetings. Wanted on sight by knights, send a representative to ask for a truce to discuss your problems.

These tactics have been used for a millinia on Earth, whay not in Fredian?

[Radog]

Because Aviar is mostly mage class, he has most of his points in INT, not STR. Since the wand adds your STR modifier to the DC, I can't usually roll high enough with him to beat someone with a high reflex save, so I "subdue" them, which basically means kill them and rez them to jail. Addicted told me that this is one way to go about it and I agree. So most of the time he is not just porting people to jail, he at least gives them a chance to run or fight it out.

As far as the Knights sending groups of evil-doers to jail during combat, you have to ask yourself a question IC: Are the Knights trying to make it a fair, engaging, winner takes all battle? Or are they trying to end the combat and deliver justice as quickly as possible? I think it should be up to the individual Knight to decide whether he wants to start porting people to jail in combat or survive it first, then port the dead to jail. A few days ago, Aviar walked into town to find that a brawl was taking place, with at least seven people involved. He stood there, put his hand on his hip and watched, then when it was all over, he calmly and deliberately sent just about all the participants to jail, one by one, after a series of questions. Like I said, I think it is up to the individual Knight to determine the best, fastest way to end the conflict and deliver justice, my two Abe Lincolns....

[addicted2rpg]

I take it Aviar has not casted timestop and tried to Lasso someone.


Tell me how it works for you.


Mages are by far the most deadly knights.

[Radog]

Nope, never even knew about that....Don't use timestop that often, only once in a while, but maybe now that will increase *popular evil laugh voiceset*

hmmhmmhmmhmmmhmm......